Re: The pairing debate thread!
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soreveil wrote:
CatMuto wrote:
Spoiler:
I'm hesitating to ask...but what?!
SOMETIMES the ---- will wear a purplish hat. I won't go any further since Cat likes to. I'm not Cat. I'm Blak.
#swag
I'm Blak, and I have shit taste.
Re: The pairing debate thread!
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CatMuto wrote:
Adrian in black wrote:
Even if someone is being an ass, why would they bother going out of their way to be an ass to someone else, repeatedly, if they didn't care?
That's a pretty dumb way to put it. And a total idiotic thing in general - Sure, Hate and Love are extremely strong emotions and have a very fine line separating them, but that doesn't mean that just because you hate somebody, you actually like or care about them.
There's nothing dumb or idiotic about it. When I say 'care,' I mean 'care enough to bother.'
And I didn't say that hating someone always means you secretly like someone. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes someone pisses you off, but there are moments
Of course, I'm certain you noticed from the rest of my post that I was not presenting "hate=love" as any kind of rule, let alone one without exceptions.
Quote:
I hate Collet Brunel from Tales of Symphonia so much that I want to slap her around the block with my spiked pimp-cane and strangle her. But I don't care about her or like her. I like the idea of hurting her.
Yes, you care enough to entertain the idea of subjecting a fictional character to a series of violent acts.
I look at hate a little bit differently. Now, I know bad things happen, or you encounter some horrible, horrible people. Hatred is bound to occur at some point, and that's fine. People butt heads, people get hurt, people have reasons to hate, at least for a while. (And when channeled properly, hatred can sometimes be productive and inspire good things. For example, say you hate animal abuse, so you start a charity/organization that rescues neglected/abused pets.) But I don't believe in unbridled hatred. To me, it's a wasted emotion. You know, the kind that festers for years, and inspires nothing but the worst, most negative qualities in a person. I tend to let the minor things go. If I'm going to seriously hate on something, I'm going to save it for something truly godawful.
Quote:
The teasing thing you mentioned, it happened to me - I was too young, I didn't understand why he was doing things that were really pissing me off and actually somewhat scaring me. But the entire premise of teasing someone to get their attention is stupid.
Oh, you'll get their attention, alright. Exactly the wrong kind, the one that you didn't want from them.
Oh, you'll get their attention, alright. Exactly the wrong kind, the one that you didn't want from them.
I didn't say it was always nice for the other person. Unfortunately, sometimes a person is incapable of expressing their feelings in an honest manner, whether it's due to a bad past experience, or just general insecurities. Sometimes the teasing is lighthearted. Other times, a person can overdo it because they're frustrated with themselves and are scared of being rejected. You call it stupid, but people do it more than you think. And not everyone's experience is the same. Some people get turned off as you did, while others don't mind it so much.
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Re: The pairing debate thread!
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And you guys are probably thinking, "Where did this pairing come from?"
Originally, the pairing was introduced to me when I read a fanfic where Phoenix is talking to Apollo about Maya and he mentions Pearl and thinks Apollo should go on a date with her.
Ok, at first I thought the idea was weird.
But when I thought about it more, I thought the idea was cute. I felt Apollo could be the prince Pearly would dream of. And about the age gap, age is just a number and Apollo doesn't seem like the type of man to take advantage of a minor.
Re: The pairing debate thread!
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Emiko Gale wrote:
Anyone care to discuss Apollo/Pearl with me? (What? Klavier/Franziska isn't the only crack AA pairing I like.)
And you guys are probably thinking, "Where did this pairing come from?"
Originally, the pairing was introduced to me when I read a fanfic where Phoenix is talking to Apollo about Maya and he mentions Pearl and thinks Apollo should go on a date with her.
Ok, at first I thought the idea was weird.
But when I thought about it more, I thought the idea was cute. I felt Apollo could be the prince Pearly would dream of. And about the age gap, age is just a number and Apollo doesn't seem like the type of man to take advantage of a minor.
And you guys are probably thinking, "Where did this pairing come from?"
Originally, the pairing was introduced to me when I read a fanfic where Phoenix is talking to Apollo about Maya and he mentions Pearl and thinks Apollo should go on a date with her.
Ok, at first I thought the idea was weird.
But when I thought about it more, I thought the idea was cute. I felt Apollo could be the prince Pearly would dream of. And about the age gap, age is just a number and Apollo doesn't seem like the type of man to take advantage of a minor.
Do you think Pearl would still be as distrusting of outsiders as she was when she was little?
In 2-2, she'd always try to hide from Nick whenever he'd approach her, and in 3-2, she got angry at Nick for defending Ron because she believed he was the thief of the sacred urn.
If Apollo wants to get involved in relationship with Pearls, he might need to convince her he's trustworthy enough.
(Yes, I know we're making a fanfic where Polly and Pearl have a daughter, but it's just interesting to debate this.)
Re: The pairing debate thread!
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Gnobo wrote:
Emiko Gale wrote:
Anyone care to discuss Apollo/Pearl with me? (What? Klavier/Franziska isn't the only crack AA pairing I like.)
And you guys are probably thinking, "Where did this pairing come from?"
Originally, the pairing was introduced to me when I read a fanfic where Phoenix is talking to Apollo about Maya and he mentions Pearl and thinks Apollo should go on a date with her.
Ok, at first I thought the idea was weird.
But when I thought about it more, I thought the idea was cute. I felt Apollo could be the prince Pearly would dream of. And about the age gap, age is just a number and Apollo doesn't seem like the type of man to take advantage of a minor.
And you guys are probably thinking, "Where did this pairing come from?"
Originally, the pairing was introduced to me when I read a fanfic where Phoenix is talking to Apollo about Maya and he mentions Pearl and thinks Apollo should go on a date with her.
Ok, at first I thought the idea was weird.
But when I thought about it more, I thought the idea was cute. I felt Apollo could be the prince Pearly would dream of. And about the age gap, age is just a number and Apollo doesn't seem like the type of man to take advantage of a minor.
Do you think Pearl would still be as distrusting of outsiders as she was when she was little?
In 2-2, she'd always try to hide from Nick whenever he'd approach her, and in 3-2, she got angry at Nick for defending Ron because she believed he was the thief of the sacred urn.
If Apollo wants to get involved in relationship with Pearls, he might need to convince her he's trustworthy enough.
(Yes, I know we're making a fanfic where Polly and Pearl have a daughter, but it's just interesting to debate this.)
*snaps fingers* Apollo is a defense attorney, trustworthy is in his resume, I think.
(Speaking of the fanfic, I am currently writing it. x3)
Re: The pairing debate thread!
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Emiko Gale wrote:
Gnobo wrote:
Emiko Gale wrote:
Anyone care to discuss Apollo/Pearl with me? (What? Klavier/Franziska isn't the only crack AA pairing I like.)
And you guys are probably thinking, "Where did this pairing come from?"
Originally, the pairing was introduced to me when I read a fanfic where Phoenix is talking to Apollo about Maya and he mentions Pearl and thinks Apollo should go on a date with her.
Ok, at first I thought the idea was weird.
But when I thought about it more, I thought the idea was cute. I felt Apollo could be the prince Pearly would dream of. And about the age gap, age is just a number and Apollo doesn't seem like the type of man to take advantage of a minor.
And you guys are probably thinking, "Where did this pairing come from?"
Originally, the pairing was introduced to me when I read a fanfic where Phoenix is talking to Apollo about Maya and he mentions Pearl and thinks Apollo should go on a date with her.
Ok, at first I thought the idea was weird.
But when I thought about it more, I thought the idea was cute. I felt Apollo could be the prince Pearly would dream of. And about the age gap, age is just a number and Apollo doesn't seem like the type of man to take advantage of a minor.
Do you think Pearl would still be as distrusting of outsiders as she was when she was little?
In 2-2, she'd always try to hide from Nick whenever he'd approach her, and in 3-2, she got angry at Nick for defending Ron because she believed he was the thief of the sacred urn.
If Apollo wants to get involved in relationship with Pearls, he might need to convince her he's trustworthy enough.
(Yes, I know we're making a fanfic where Polly and Pearl have a daughter, but it's just interesting to debate this.)
*snaps fingers* Apollo is a defense attorney, trustworthy is in his resume, I think.
(Speaking of the fanfic, I am currently writing it. x3)
Well, so much for this being a debate, I agree to arguments too quickly!
I mean, Apollo did get all of his clients acquitted, and he is very devoted to making sure everyone receives their just reward. So, yeah, he would be pretty trustworthy.
If only we had official information on Pearly's personality during the events of AJ, I would have more to debate on...unless someone else would like to input something a little more interesting.
Re: The pairing debate thread!
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She would probably be more educated by the age of 16/18. And she would probably be a kind hearted spirit medium who still has some fight in her when nessesary.
And she would probably attract a lot of guys.
For some reason I imagine Klavier meeting Pearly for the first time and he uses his usual charm, which causes Apollo to get slightly peeved.
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soreveil wrote:
CatMuto wrote:
Spoiler:
I'm hesitating to ask...but what?!
Ahahahahaha!
Okay, I'll elaborate somewhat.
Spoiler:
And I'm glad to meet somebody who has the same idea as I do about the "Fighting Lovers" thing. My husband dislikes the idea as well, but majority of people I come across all think, "A and B are bickering at each other, they are in wuv~" which is really annoying after a while. I know there are people who have shipped Link and Zelda as lovers for years before the cartoon came out, but maybe the cartoon "helped" with having Zelda and Link constantly nagging.... okay and Link wanting a kiss worse than Pépé le Pew.
C-A
Re: The pairing debate thread!
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Re: The pairing debate thread!
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Emiko Gale wrote:
Replaying Apollo Justice gives me this nagging feeling that Apollo may have been gay for Kristoph.
Well let me dispell that feeling for you.
Don't worry, you're wrong :P
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Re: The pairing debate thread!
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Emiko Gale wrote:
Replaying Apollo Justice gives me this nagging feeling that Apollo may have been gay for Kristoph.
I sort of get that feeling, too.
But then I have been tainted by yaoiness, so I might be wearing Yaoi Glasses.
C-A
Re: The pairing debate thread!
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Quote:
Now I ship Phoenix with Edgeworth and Iris.
What's this? Have I found a fellow PIE shipper at last?!
Re: The pairing debate thread!
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Pierre wrote:
Emiko Gale wrote:
Replaying Apollo Justice gives me this nagging feeling that Apollo may have been gay for Kristoph.
Well let me dispell that feeling for you.
Don't worry, you're wrong :P
Jerkface! >.>
It's not like I ship them......But it does make a bit more sense to me than Klavier/Apollo.
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Re: The pairing debate thread!
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So what do you guys think? If that game existed do you think female Phoenix would ever have a think for Edgeworth? And vice versa?
Re: The pairing debate thread!
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Emiko Gale wrote:
I now have a guilty pleasure ship...As much I love Phoenix/Edgeworth yaoi I got a feeling if an alternate universe game existed where Phoenix is female I would end up shipping Edgeworth/Phoenix as a hetero pairing.
So what do you guys think? If that game existed do you think female Phoenix would ever have a think for Edgeworth? And vice versa?
So what do you guys think? If that game existed do you think female Phoenix would ever have a think for Edgeworth? And vice versa?
Assuming their personalities are exactly the same then no.
Because Edgeworth is asexual and Phoenix views him as a friend.
Shouldn't matter much if gender was swapped.
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Re: The pairing debate thread!
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Pierre wrote:
Emiko Gale wrote:
I now have a guilty pleasure ship...As much I love Phoenix/Edgeworth yaoi I got a feeling if an alternate universe game existed where Phoenix is female I would end up shipping Edgeworth/Phoenix as a hetero pairing.
So what do you guys think? If that game existed do you think female Phoenix would ever have a think for Edgeworth? And vice versa?
So what do you guys think? If that game existed do you think female Phoenix would ever have a think for Edgeworth? And vice versa?
Assuming their personalities are exactly the same then no.
Because Edgeworth is asexual and Phoenix views him as a friend.
Shouldn't matter much if gender was swapped.
*strokes chin* didn't think of that...But, I just have a nagging feeling. And if Phoenix was female it's not like Larry would bat an eye around her.
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Emiko Gale wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Emiko Gale wrote:
I now have a guilty pleasure ship...As much I love Phoenix/Edgeworth yaoi I got a feeling if an alternate universe game existed where Phoenix is female I would end up shipping Edgeworth/Phoenix as a hetero pairing.
So what do you guys think? If that game existed do you think female Phoenix would ever have a think for Edgeworth? And vice versa?
So what do you guys think? If that game existed do you think female Phoenix would ever have a think for Edgeworth? And vice versa?
Assuming their personalities are exactly the same then no.
Because Edgeworth is asexual and Phoenix views him as a friend.
Shouldn't matter much if gender was swapped.
*strokes chin* didn't think of that...But, I just have a nagging feeling. And if Phoenix was female it's not like Larry would bat an eye around her.
Way I see it it's down to their core characteristics for stuff like that.
Phoenix: Has liked one woman, not particularly interested in others. So for Fem!Phoenix we flip this including some male equivalent of Dahlia/Iris.
Larry: Always likes women.
Edgeworth: Asexual.
Larry would be an annoying friend in the way that they were friends in school before they cared about 'boys' or 'girls' so the ties are there. Grown up he'd probably harass Nick with light flirts now and then when she has to defend him but Nick being Nick would put him down with a groan.
Edgeworth is asexual...therefore doesn't care like he always has.
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Emiko Gale wrote:
I now have a guilty pleasure ship...As much I love Phoenix/Edgeworth yaoi I got a feeling if an alternate universe game existed where Phoenix is female I would end up shipping Edgeworth/Phoenix as a hetero pairing.
So what do you guys think? If that game existed do you think female Phoenix would ever have a think for Edgeworth? And vice versa?
So what do you guys think? If that game existed do you think female Phoenix would ever have a think for Edgeworth? And vice versa?
I don't know, but I think if the GAME PLOT had been written with one of them female it would be read by many players as cliché romance plot, hence the basis of P/E.
I also support the idea that Edgeworth is portrayed as near-canonically 'asexual', and GK continued this.
So the whole P-E deal in game 1 fits with many 'romantic' stereotypes, although this probably (almost certainly) wasn't intended by Takumi. P/E is a valid reading of the game but basically fanon.
Would the relationship be 'more likely' if 'Phoenix was Female'? I think it would be no different in terms of the actual characters in their world. It's never proven Phoenix is 100% 'straight', only that he's not 100% 'gay'. Nothing is ever shown to make us suspect he couldn't, hypothetically, be 'Gay For Edgeworth'.
Emiko Gale wrote:
Replaying Apollo Justice gives me this nagging feeling that Apollo may have been gay for Kristoph.
It's not like I ship them......But it does make a bit more sense to me than Klavier/Apollo.
It's not like I ship them......But it does make a bit more sense to me than Klavier/Apollo.
Well, judging by the Kink Meme people agreed with you...
as in 'something went on'...
Especially in the stories where Kristoph raised Apollo.
It's way better than Klavier/Apollo
I never understood that (based on one line?) but I hate Klavier and Apollo is boring. Kristoph sure could be gay.
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icer wrote:
It's never proven Phoenix is 100% 'straight'
I suppose the games don't come outright and say it, but they might as well. The only time a same sex relationship of any sort is even hinted at with Phoenix it's been met with repulsion. Granted it was Max calling him "sweetie" and Jean Armstrong just being himself, and neither one of them is real catch, but the fact it isn't brought up more often is proof in itself. Phoenix just isn't interested in dudes, period, so it's a non-issue.
Compare that to women where he's blushed like a loon at Dessie, described Dee Vasquez as beautiful, determined to get to April May's bottom, found Franzy's hostility as cute, eyeballed Maya in her waitress uniform, and of course, was in head over heels love with Iris/Dollie. He's not a one track mind like Larry, but he's very obviously straight and attracted to women. I don't even understand why anyone would try to argue otherwise.
As for Edgeworth, the guy just doesn't care about relationships in general. I think the only time he's even hinted at any sort of attraction to anyone was the slip of the mental tongue regarding that "bikini lady" Gumshoe mentioned. Even that's a stretch. I get the feeling that if pressed, Edgeworth would identify as straight, but he still has no interest in women. He's just married to the job.
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nevertalk wrote:
icer wrote:
It's never proven Phoenix is 100% 'straight'
Compare that to women where he's blushed like a loon at Dessie, described Dee Vasquez as beautiful, determined to get to April May's bottom, found Franzy's hostility as cute, eyeballed Maya in her waitress uniform, and of course, was in head over heels love with Iris/Dollie. He's not a one track mind like Larry, but he's very obviously straight and attracted to women. I don't even understand why anyone would try to argue otherwise.
Yeah, Phoenix definitely has good eyes for women... (Mentioning that he finds hostility cute could also very likely mean that he's just into that part of S&M)
Then again, Phoenix constantly makes interior decorator comments about the various places he's in, his sole reason to become a lawyer was meeting Edgeworth again and, in Case 2-3, Phoenix definitely mentions that he 'really isn't into that sort of thing' when talking about Max' "ample bust".
Yes, we all know it's a statue he's talking about, but leave me to my fun fantasies that everything said in this game is just a giant sexual innuendo.
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nevertalk wrote:
I suppose the games don't come outright and say it, but they might as well. The only time a same sex relationship of any sort is even hinted at with Phoenix it's been met with repulsion. Granted it was Max calling him "sweetie" and Jean Armstrong just being himself, and neither one of them is real catch, but the fact it isn't brought up more often is proof in itself. Phoenix just isn't interested in dudes, period, so it's a non-issue.
Quote:
It's never proven Phoenix is 100% 'straight', only that he's not 100% 'gay'.
Who would be attracted to Armstrong? Phoenix seemed to be jealous of Max (but I'm just reading that scene as a P/M shipper)
Nah it's Edgeworth who is the interesting one with Phoenix. They never try to 'sink the ship' as it were. And they KNOW yaoi fangirls ship it, even though it wasn't intended.
Phoenix is certainly predominantly straight, but I don't see that it's a barrier to P/E specifically... if you really, really want to ship it. Edgeworth could be the exception to Phoenix's rule.
If you don't there's absolutely no reason to have to.
Oldbag canonically thinks P/E are a couple
But Pearl, Dahlia, (Larry? doesn't count) and maybe Bikini think P/M are a couple, so there you go.
But they're really pushing the canonic 'asexual' thing with Edgeworth... or at least 'virtually no interest in women'.
And I have seen the academic sounding essays claiming that P/E is canon and it's canon Phoenix isn't straight. WHAAAAAT? Now that is not supportable.
Um, returning to the original question, well
in P->E we have a canonic tale of platonic obsession.
In female P->E we would still have the same canonic tale of platonic obsession. Nothing has changed.
All that's changed is how players respond to it.
In P->E most people assume that straight pairings are default and Phoenix is 100% straight, so they don't think 'romance'.
In female P->E people think of all kinds of stereotypes of 'straight pairings' and assume that 'romance' is a more likely explanation, due to stereotypes.
But it's no different or more likely canonically than male P/E.
But people (possibly different ones to P/E now) would ship it.
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icer wrote:
Oldbag canonically thinks P/E are a couple
What? When was this?
CatMuto wrote:
Then again, Phoenix constantly makes interior decorator comments about the various places he's in, his sole reason to become a lawyer was meeting Edgeworth again and, in Case 2-3, Phoenix definitely mentions that he 'really isn't into that sort of thing' when talking about Max' "ample bust".
The first is because Phoenix was an art student in college. As a graphic designer who's as straight as an arrow, I can tell you I'm allowed to remark on design, color, composition, and whatever else I want without playing for the other team. That's just a stereotype you have there. If you're playing with those, Nick doesn't know anything about flowers, so there.
The last is an outright denial. He realized what it sounded like he was saying and caught it. Compare "not that I'm into that sort of thing" to the "you know what I mean" when he made a similar slip with April May.
The second I saved for last because it's actually true in a way. Although it was to help Edgeworth the way he had helped Phoenix, not just to see him again. The "to meet Edgeworth" line was Maya trying to comprehend Phoenix's reasoning. I see a lot of huge misconceptions about Phoenix and Edgeworth's relationship, but none of them are as big as the proclamation that Phoenix "devoted his life" to Edgeworth. That's simply not true. He wanted to become a lawyer when Edgeworth defended him in the fourth grade, but what do we see him as next? He's an art student. He's still studying law because that childhood dream is still in there, but over the years his interests changed. It wasn't until he met Mia did that dream become reality. Something else to note is during Turnabout Goodbyes when Phoenix says to Larry that he wanted to become a lawyer because of "what you two did" for him. Shippers push away all the other influences in his life to try and make Phoenix's career choice a huge romantic decision and it just isn't.
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nevertalk wrote:
The first is because Phoenix was an art student in college. .... I see a lot of huge misconceptions about Phoenix and Edgeworth's relationship, but none of them are as big as the proclamation that Phoenix "devoted his life" to Edgeworth. That's simply not true. He wanted to become a lawyer when Edgeworth defended him in the fourth grade, but what do we see him as next? He's an art student. He's still studying law because that childhood dream is still in there, but over the years his interests changed. It wasn't until he met Mia did that dream become reality. Something else to note is during Turnabout Goodbyes when Phoenix says to Larry that he wanted to become a lawyer because of "what you two did" for him. Shippers push away all the other influences in his life to try and make Phoenix's career choice a huge romantic decision and it just isn't.
Phoenix/Larry
I see 3-1 as a whole Phoenix led astray [blinded by lies and illusions] by Dollie thing, (and 'Dollie' is the whole lying construct of Dahlia, Iris and Phoenix's imagination) although I guess he chose his major before he met her[???]. And the fact Edgey is all implicated in 3-4 being Demon Prosecutor, and effectively has Terry's blood on his hands, just adds to this reading. Phoenix was still writing his LETTERS pre-Dollie, remember?
But Mia rescues him from his blindness and back to his True Path of Seeing the Truth Through Lies. Naruhodo.
But if just one person 'saves' you at the right low point in your life, when everyone really is against you, you can form a love-like devotion to them, and it doesn't have to be 'romantic' (although it could morph into that, but there are platonic explanations). For Phoenix to be that obsessed, I'm thinking there was more going on than just the class trial. Maybe his parents treated him like dirt. But it's all fanon. But Phoenix being obsessively obsessively loyal is a signature character quirk, and we see it with Maya and even Larry. (And betrayed by Iris ugh)
Egeworth is Phoenix's... 'Partner-In-Law' so far as I can see. He's had a huge impact on his life course and what makes him tick, so much so he goes into emotional meltdowns of 'betrayal' when Edgey leaves after 1-(4)5 et al, but it's not 'romantic'.
Quote:
What? When was this?
Um well, it's a bit convoluted, but I did read it as (Oldbag assuming) P/E despite my P/M shipping googles:
Spoiler:
This isn't a debate. This is a discussion.
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icer wrote:
Quote:
What? When was this?
Um well, it's a bit convoluted, but I did read it as (Oldbag assuming) P/E despite my P/M shipping googles:
Spoiler:
This isn't a debate. This is a discussion.
Spoiler: cut for possible offensiveness
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Re: The pairing debate thread!
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icer wrote:
Oldbag canonically thinks P/E are a couple
But Pearl, Dahlia, (Larry? doesn't count) and maybe Bikini think P/M are a couple, so there you go.
But they're really pushing the canonic 'asexual' thing with Edgeworth... or at least 'virtually no interest in women'.
But Pearl, Dahlia, (Larry? doesn't count) and maybe Bikini think P/M are a couple, so there you go.
But they're really pushing the canonic 'asexual' thing with Edgeworth... or at least 'virtually no interest in women'.
Oh and having these hints about P/M is not really pushing it?
Why? Why does everybody think that just because there are two characters that spend a lot of time with each other and are of the opposite sex they automatically have to be romantic interests? Why can't it just stay at "Friends" or maybe even "I have a crush on you. Oh, you don't on me? Okay"
And I'm not saying this as an Anti-PhoenixMaya person, but in general.
As soon as there are only two main characters or the ones that have a ton of screen-time, they immediately ship them. Why? It makes no sense. Heck, I've seen people ship NoelxSera from XIII-2... for no reason other than that those two are journey-ing together. And Snow being off-screen kinda helps, but overall, it's for the first reason.
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Re: The pairing debate thread!
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CatMuto wrote:
Why? Why does everybody think that just because there are two characters that spend a lot of time with each other and are of the opposite sex they automatically have to be romantic interests? Why can't it just stay at "Friends" or maybe even "I have a crush on you. Oh, you don't on me? Okay"
I describe Phoenix and Maya's relationship as a big ball of everything. There's definitely no romantic interest in the first game. Besides Maya not even being legal age yet, Phoenix first met her as someone to protect for Mia's sake. While it's possible (and likely) she developed a bit of a "night in shining armor" crush and the two of them became fast friends, it's just that.
It's not until Farewell, My Turnabout do I think anything serious begins to brew. People will try and explain them away as "like brother and sister" but that doesn't even to begin to encompass what they mean to each other. Phoenix has defended a guilty man and tried to cross a burning bridge over a fatal drop for Maya's sake without a second thought. Maya's sole focus was Phoenix while kidnapped and she's thrown herself on a taser just to prove herself useful to him. That's not "like brother and sister". That goes beyond even friends.
Is it love? Definitely. Is it romantic love? No, or at least not openly. They deny it, but people around them sure see it. Just how did Turner Grey and Pearl get it in their heads that Phoenix and Maya are a couple? Why did Dahlia assume her "ex-boyfriend" found someone else?
That's why it's a bit of everything. Their relationship is too complex and deep to describe in a single word.
Re: The pairing debate thread!
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Yeah, their relationship is complex and keeps me wondering and asking for more...Hence why I usually dislike canon ships because most of them just toss a pairing on my lap expecting me to accept it and I'm all like, "no way!" Except Gumeshoe/Maggey because that pairing is just adorable.
And from what CatMuto told us...FF13-2 sounds a bit shallow so far. :/
Re: The pairing debate thread!
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Emiko Gale wrote:
What nevertalk said...I know I didn't ship Phoenix/Maya in the first game, but case 1-4 and a bit of case 1-5 did make me start to wonder.
CatMuto wrote:
Quote:
Why? Why does everybody think that just because there are two characters that spend a lot of time with each other and are of the opposite sex they automatically have to be romantic interests? Why can't it just stay at "Friends" or maybe even "I have a crush on you. Oh, you don't on me? Okay"
P/M hypothesis is all a product of GS2. It (2-2 especially, 2-4) recontextualises the 'relationship' they formed in GS1. (Then GS3 3-5 builds on it further)
And in GS1 it would have looked kind of weird, like Phoenix is taking advatage of her, but now Maya is an 'adult' as they make huge deal of, it isn't :)
P-M is all 'show don't tell'. Their relationship is ambiguous. And I don't really care.
No of course they aren't a 'romantic couple' during the games. That's not what shipping is about.
I don't ship them because they are a M-F who happen to be friends. I ship them because their connection is such that if it wasn't 'romantic' it would still usurp anything a 'romantic' partner could give them in terms of reciprocation. Now go on and 'prove' it's 'always going to be 100% platonic in every imaginable scenario?' (because I don't know, they've shown physical disgust about each other or something, or come out as Lifetime Asexuals). You can't. So yeah you don't have to ship it, but there's no reason not to if you want to.
Well yeah of course the Oldbag quote doesn't 'prove' anything, all the 'shipping' hints in the game about anyone are debatable really. But it's interesting it exists in the first place. I find it hard to deny she claimed Phoenix was 'gay'. They just like to mess around. Add to the strange thing people take to imply Mia/Lana, that weird thing imagining Gumshoe sitting at Edgey's desk thinking about him and nosebleeding, and whatever other odd lines they throw around.... Nobody runs around declaring their vows of 100% Straightness to the world. Of course it's hard to know which lines were only from the ENG translators who might be pandering to certain known audiences.
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Re: The pairing debate thread!
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icer wrote:
Well yeah of course the Oldbag quote doesn't 'prove' anything, all the 'shipping' hints in the game about anyone are debatable really. But it's interesting it exists in the first place. I find it hard to deny she claimed Phoenix was 'gay'. They just like to mess around. Add to the strange thing people take to imply Mia/Lana, that weird thing imagining Gumshoe sitting at Edgey's desk thinking about him and nosebleeding, and whatever other odd lines they throw around.... Nobody runs around declaring their vows of 100% Straightness to the world. Of course it's hard to know which lines were only from the ENG translators who might be pandering to certain known audiences.
Well yeah. English translators sometimes add things that aren't there in the original Japanese text. *recalls a "maybe" that was randomly added to a young lady's line in Suikoden V* But if English translators are just screwing around, it hardly makes them the voice of god.
And I don't know what's weird about Gumshoe and the nosebleed? In 3-5, it was only brought up because of the blood you found on the floor, and in reference to just a "someone," not Gumshoe. It was Phoenix who wondered if it might be him, and the cause of the nosebleed had nothing to do with Gumshoe possibly having romantic feelings for Edgeworth.
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Re: The pairing debate thread!
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Adrian in black wrote:
Well yeah. English translators sometimes add things that aren't there in the original Japanese text.
They occasionally remove things too. There's a missing line in the English release of the first game where Mia refers to Phoenix as her "cute subordinate". I don't know why it was removed, and I doubt it was her actually flirting with him, but there you have it. You might remember Franziska using that same turn of phrase to describe Edgeworth in AAI. Of course then it was purely to twist the knife in him, rather than Mia just being her usual friendly self.
Re: The pairing debate thread!
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nevertalk wrote:
Adrian in black wrote:
Well yeah. English translators sometimes add things that aren't there in the original Japanese text.
They occasionally remove things too. There's a missing line in the English release of the first game where Mia refers to Phoenix as her "cute subordinate". I don't know why it was removed, and I doubt it was her actually flirting with him, but there you have it. You might remember Franziska using that same turn of phrase to describe Edgeworth in AAI. Of course then it was purely to twist the knife in him, rather than Mia just being her usual friendly self.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3r160LnH-k
you know, speaking about things that were removed in translations, there's one that pisses me off as a player of the games a fan and most importantly, as a translator with morals.
In the English translation of the game there's a line that many PxM fans quote for showing how special is Maya to Phoenix, that line is.
Quote:
Phoenix: I can't even protect the person closest to me.
I don't need to explain how special this line is nor the emotional value that it holds.
Now tell me, if you were the translator of this game and all the Spanish speakers counted on you to bring a proper translation, would you change this line? Of course not! that would be silly and unnecessary! so let's see what they bring to us.
Quote:
Phoenix: Me doy cuenta que ni siquiera soy capaz de proteger a los que me rodean.(I realize i'm not even capable of protecting those around me.)
...
I mean, Jesus Christ...why?!... how do you screw this up?!
Does it hold any emotional value compared to the original, heck does it make any sense at all?! who else of his friends he couldn't protect in this case aside for Franziska, seriously!!
I been trying to come up with an explanation but...
Well, maybe this is the line in the Japanese version and they were trying to be loyal to that? that... doesn't make sense considering that all the names are from the american version and Maya still loves burgers in this version, so it's obvious that they translated this from the English version.
Was it to hard to translate? Heck no! This isn't a pun nor a figurative speech nor a connotation not even a cultural reference.
I can translate it in a few seconds, watch!
Quote:
... Ni siquiera pude proteger a la persona más cercana a mí.
Ta-daaaa!!
there is no excuse for this!!
You wanna know what this is? this isn't laziness. This isn't trying to improve the original. This. Is. Betrayal.
Betrayal to the source material, to the consumers, to a whole community of people who can't read any other language!
So, to the bastard whose responsible for this I just have to say!!!
*sigh*
Sorry, for snapping like that, I'm not usually the kind of person that start ranting for whatever reason... most of the time.
Anyway please continue with the debate
Re: The pairing debate thread!
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Adrian in black wrote:
But if English translators are just screwing around, it hardly makes them the voice of god.
And I don't know what's weird about Gumshoe and the nosebleed? In 3-5, it was only brought up because of the blood you found on the floor, and in reference to just a "someone," not Gumshoe. It was Phoenix who wondered if it might be him, and the cause of the nosebleed had nothing to do with Gumshoe possibly having romantic feelings for Edgeworth.
And I don't know what's weird about Gumshoe and the nosebleed? In 3-5, it was only brought up because of the blood you found on the floor, and in reference to just a "someone," not Gumshoe. It was Phoenix who wondered if it might be him, and the cause of the nosebleed had nothing to do with Gumshoe possibly having romantic feelings for Edgeworth.
cough
how do you know? It's a standard yaoi trope and possibly was in the JP version. Of course it doesn't really 'mean that', but it's sort of the equivalent of using loaded language.
And Mia and Lana were only intellectually attracted (why did they throw that in??? was it even in the JP one?)
and
What we get as the ENG translation has to be the word of, um, god. How are we supposed to know when it's them having um, fun and randomness? Is the ENG version not canon or something? (a lot of the stuff around Phoenix and April May which makes him look pretty straight with slightly tasteless jokes might have only been in the ENG version as well, come to think of it. Not saying he isn't, but you can't just disregard some parts of the ENG localisation and keep others)
We are fans, and we respond to the game in our minds by playing it. (It's interactive and all) So we are god... of our own headcanon...
They write ambiguous things on purpose sometimes, you know. And I don't just mean strange shipping material. They know it will be interpreted in a range of ways by different players. This is a game, not a movie. We're supposed to engage more with the material and our personal experiences of it and how we expand on it. (Which is another reason why there are practically no canon pairings, they're not cheap enough to ruin anyone's fun. Even the near canon pairings are debatable. And most of the people who were married broke up or died, interestingly enough)
Quote:
'There's a missing line in the English release of the first game where Mia refers to Phoenix as her "cute subordinate". '
Awwww when was this? To who?
Whyyy was this removed? They must have wanted to make Phoenix seem more imposing or macho or something. Cute as in adorable, attractive or what?
It's super hard to get a read on Phoenix-Mia pre-death. Mia's attitude to Phoenix in 3-1 tends to sink any idea she had any kind of feelings ever, but that was written later and they had to suddenly rope in Diego's existence and all....
Hey anyone know if there's a fan translation of the JP script somewhere? I know people used to fan translate these games before anyone knew they'd be brought to the West but i'm not sure these translations still exist anywhere...
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Re: The pairing debate thread!
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Quote:
It's not until Farewell, My Turnabout do I think anything serious begins to brew. People will try and explain them away as "like brother and sister" but that doesn't even to begin to encompass what they mean to each other. Phoenix has defended a guilty man and tried to cross a burning bridge over a fatal drop for Maya's sake without a second thought. Maya's sole focus was Phoenix while kidnapped and she's thrown herself on a taser just to prove herself useful to him. That's not "like brother and sister". That goes beyond even friends.
You just said GS1 didn't show much hint for them and you mention something from GS1 as proof?
I'm not denying that they are close, but I doubt they really love each other. And Maya focusing on one thing to think about while being kidnapped means nothing. If you're in a bad situation, you generally try to focus your thoughts on something unrelated or different, so you don't have to mentally remember all the time that you are in such a bad situation.
I believe I have mentioned often enough how I dislike the entire Case of 2-4. The message behind it was very good, it was a lesson that Phoenix - and actually every attorney - has to and should learn at some point. I just think the execution of it was terrible. Especially since it started with the coward-way of using blackmail to get the case going to begin with. So I won't say anything more about Maya being kidnapped.
C-A
Re: The pairing debate thread!
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nevertalk wrote:
It's not until Farewell, My Turnabout do I think anything serious begins to brew. People will try and explain them away as "like brother and sister" but that doesn't even to begin to encompass what they mean to each other. Phoenix has defended a guilty man and tried to cross a burning bridge over a fatal drop for Maya's sake without a second thought. Maya's sole focus was Phoenix while kidnapped and she's thrown herself on a taser just to prove herself useful to him. That's not "like brother and sister". That goes beyond even friends.
Err Nevertalk that seems like something that is perfectly within the bonds of brotherly or sisterly love in fiction.
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Re: The pairing debate thread!
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icer wrote:
Awwww when was this? To who?
Whyyy was this removed? They must have wanted to make Phoenix seem more imposing or macho or something. Cute as in adorable, attractive or what?
Whyyy was this removed? They must have wanted to make Phoenix seem more imposing or macho or something. Cute as in adorable, attractive or what?
It was in the first lines Mia speaks for Turnabout Beginnings. Here's a direct translation:
Spoiler:
Interesting that the school trial was mentioned so early on in the Japanese version.
CatMuto wrote:
You just said GS1 didn't show much hint for them and you mention something from GS1 as proof?
I meant "them" as in mutual feelings. Maya's likely one sided early on. Her entire desire in AA1 is to be useful to Phoenix. She even managed to channel for the first time because he was in danger. You can deny that it's love and I can't prove otherwise, but her feelings are clearly very strong. He stepped up as her only shelter against the storm, after all.
CatMuto wrote:
And Maya focusing on one thing to think about while being kidnapped means nothing.
Nothing? That card with Phoenix's picture drawn on it was the after-credits stinger. They teased it the entire ending just to make sure you paid attention to it. It's what the writers purposefully made sure you took home with you when the game was over. That seems like going to an awful lot of trouble for something that doesn't mean anything.
Re: The pairing debate thread!
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icer wrote:
Adrian in black wrote:
But if English translators are just screwing around, it hardly makes them the voice of god.
And I don't know what's weird about Gumshoe and the nosebleed? In 3-5, it was only brought up because of the blood you found on the floor, and in reference to just a "someone," not Gumshoe. It was Phoenix who wondered if it might be him, and the cause of the nosebleed had nothing to do with Gumshoe possibly having romantic feelings for Edgeworth.
And I don't know what's weird about Gumshoe and the nosebleed? In 3-5, it was only brought up because of the blood you found on the floor, and in reference to just a "someone," not Gumshoe. It was Phoenix who wondered if it might be him, and the cause of the nosebleed had nothing to do with Gumshoe possibly having romantic feelings for Edgeworth.
cough
how do you know? It's a standard yaoi trope and possibly was in the JP version. Of course it doesn't really 'mean that', but it's sort of the equivalent of using loaded language.
And Mia and Lana were only intellectually attracted (why did they throw that in??? was it even in the JP one?)
and
What we get as the ENG translation has to be the word of, um, god. How are we supposed to know when it's them having um, fun and randomness? Is the ENG version not canon or something? (a lot of the stuff around Phoenix and April May which makes him look pretty straight with slightly tasteless jokes might have only been in the ENG version as well, come to think of it. Not saying he isn't, but you can't just disregard some parts of the ENG localisation and keep others)
We are fans, and we respond to the game in our minds by playing it. (It's interactive and all) So we are god... of our own headcanon...
They write ambiguous things on purpose sometimes, you know. And I don't just mean strange shipping material. They know it will be interpreted in a range of ways by different players. This is a game, not a movie. We're supposed to engage more with the material and our personal experiences of it and how we expand on it. (Which is another reason why there are practically no canon pairings, they're not cheap enough to ruin anyone's fun. Even the near canon pairings are debatable. And most of the people who were married broke up or died, interestingly enough)
I'm not sure what you're arguing. I'm wrong, but I'm right?
Of course the English version should be taken as canon. But there's a huge difference between "While investigating Prosecutor Office 1202, Phoenix discovered that Gumshoe totally got the urge to wax his carrot when he was polishing Edgeworth's desk using Edgeworth's handkerchief and looking at Edgeworth's award photo" and "TEE HEE! THEY MENTIONED A NOSEBLEED. Sure they said it was because somebody got slapped for their incompetence but HEE HEE NOSEBLEED. TOTALLY. THAT PROVES GUMSHOE TOTALLY WANTS IN EDGEY'S PANTS NYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA =^____________________^=."
If you want to interpret it as the latter, knock yourself out. But ambiguity =/= canon, other than the fact that the ambiguous is ambiguous. I don't really see the Gumshoe thing as being ambiguous in 'that' sense, but then, that's what this awesome thread is for.
nevertalk wrote:
It was in the first lines Mia speaks for Turnabout Beginnings. Here's a direct translation:
Interesting that the school trial was mentioned so early on in the Japanese version.
Spoiler:
Interesting that the school trial was mentioned so early on in the Japanese version.
Yeah, that does sound more like she's speaking in a mama bird sort of way. "D'awww, my little subordinate is going to have his first trial. How CUTE!"
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Re: The pairing debate thread!
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Quote:
Nothing? That card with Phoenix's picture drawn on it was the after-credits stinger. They teased it the entire ending just to make sure you paid attention to it. It's what the writers purposefully made sure you took home with you when the game was over. That seems like going to an awful lot of trouble for something that doesn't mean anything.
And then they conveniently forgot that thing ever existed.
Again, Case 2-4 was a terrible case. Good message, terrible execution. And overall, it still doesn't mean anything. Like I said, people think of other things in bad situations, so they don't have to completely experience what they are in right now. You know how people always tell themselves - or others - in terrible, terrible situations (Rape, Kidnapping, etc) to 'leave their body'? That's exactly what they're doing. They are focusing their minds on something completely different so that they practically repress or attempt to stop the brain from creating the memory of being in that situation.
And entire ending? Yeah a picture she drew... which makes me wonder, where did she get the pen from? There was no pen in the wine cellar, and none in the VCR room next to it, so how could she draw that thing or even write the notes? Maya really doesn't strike me as the sort of person who has a pen on her at all times.
But I digress, this has nothing to do with the topic...
C-A
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