Like a pokemon console battling spinoffs or newest Super Smash bros. would be good.:)

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In GS5 all of the three attorneys were pretty much starring in the game, despite the game having Phoenix's name. It is really hard to tell, as going in any direction can result in failure here. You know, Capcom will definitely try to avoid doing the same mistake they did with GS4... So I don't think Phoenix will be excluded completely. I'm a bit interested about Athena's future, considering her past trauma was resolved in the game she made her debut in, kinda wrapping up her character development. Although one could say the same about Edgey after GS1, so there is nothing to be judged yet.

And Apollo is pretty much as guaranteed to make other major appearances just like Phoenix, especially considering his character development in the latest game.

So, we are either getting one of the three characters as the main one, all of them, kinda following the way it's been done in this game or (unlikely) another new character.

My guess goes on the option number 2, three main characters. You know, the way it was done in original trilogy. Main characters on the protagonist team barely change. New story and a new prosecutor playing a major role in it. You know, classic formula.

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I think the problem is marketing. Capcom knows that when Phoenix steps down they're gonna have to see some fans walk away from the franchise... myself included. I originally planned on playing the first game only, then I got attatched, played the rest but I don't like the new crew, and I'm already starting to lose interest because Phoenix and his old crew is drifting farther and farther away to the point where they're not even relevant to the stories anymore.

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You are a perfect example of what I was talking about my friend.

I mentioned it earlier and will mention it again - there are definitely two teams in the fandom. Team Apollo and Team Phoenix. Capcom clearly acknowledges their existence, trying to satisfy both of them at this point, so... I guess we will have everyone where they belong, gradually saying hello to the classical cast, without abandoning main AJ one. This is also one of the reasons I find it so pathetic when someone steps up with an idea to drag either one of the protagonists out of the game, sometimes even suggesting killing them off.

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Nah, arguably they satisfy nobody by bringing in a 3rd wheel. It's another semi-reboot for 'new players'. Of course we have the marketing hooks of Phoenix and Apollo for 'old players' but the characters (and for that matter core plot-storylines) 'returned' from either GS4 or the initial trilogy are kind of demoted to cameos ('Super-Cameos').



I don't know what the writers THINK they're doing though. These after all are the same people who proposed AAI would be about Ema, until 'fan feedback' determined Edgeworth was more popular. What?

I'm not counting on them bringing back any more of the 'classical' cast that didn't physically appear in GS5. Not any of the old mains anyway.

Maybe they'll be super creative and bring Athena's young magical cousin to GS6 to mix things up. Speaking of, they also have the opportunity to ditch her entirely, since 'assistants' can be demoted. Since she's a Lawyer, she can be promoted to a (formal, even title) main, but since she's an Assistant she can also be removed and replaced. It was really playing it safe.

We probably will see GK3 first though, which I admit I'm not happy about. (Because let's face it without us even getting to play GK2 I'm not too interested in that game.) I don't know why they don't just make a hybrid game where people player as lawyers AND prosecutors, but that might break the formulas.

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Um. Did we ever have assistants demoted? To be honest, I didn't hear of it. Maya was never taken away from Nick until GS4. Edgeworth in AAI doesn't really count, as he's like... an another person? Similarly with Apollo and Trucy.

I believe there were two reasons why Maya wasn't Phoenix's assistant right now. First, she's too old for that role right now. Second, they did it similarly how they did with Kay instead of Ema in AAI - they wanted to implement new main characters with new story.

Poor Fey clan had enough drama, I think.

Oh, and... Case 4 is far from a filler case, you know...

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"Demoted' is how I termed: 'replaced with a new one.'

This has happened since 1-5 every game.

(GS1-3 had Maya)
Then they wrote 1-5 and had a novel 'new' assistant without Maya in the case. (Which was logical AT THE TIME)
Of course Maya is absent from GS4 and Trucy is the Assistant., Ema does occur but not as Assistant (and arguably it's a demotion from her science-enthusiastic days, and Takumi wrote that game not these writers, and she's there because it's a sequel to 1-5).
But instead of giving Trucy the Maya treatment she gets demoted for New assistant Athena, and Maya is not and Ema is
Also we get a Teen Girl In Training (Kay) for AAI, although I guess her recurring in GK2 slightly breaks the pattern. But they made a new Teen Girl Assistant for AAI/2, not reusing an old one which is the point here.

Also in GS5 Pearl gets a 'promotion' although she's not an official 'partner assistant' because she's now a 17yo Teen Girl Magic Girl In Training and Maya isn't, but she does get a 'assistant cameo'. Main Assistants get retired/changed for every game written after GS3, including 1-5. So it's always possible Athena can be given the same treatment and be demoted for GS6. Or not, since she'll only be 19 if they set it 'a year later'. Or since she's a Lawyer she could be treated like one of 'them'. They can do any of these and still be using the same formulas the series has used.



Who says? The formula all Assistants 'have to be a Teen Magic Girl In Training'. Point made. Maya's been retired, and so have the other Assistants, (or demoted like Trucy to cameo-assistant only, even though Trucy's only 16) so Athena could well be given the same treatment for GS6... IF they want.

To be honest I think they're waiting for 'feedback' to decide what direction to take with her and the other characters. So she could be elevated further to a proper main lawyer or ditched/demoted like I said. There's no way she'd be making the switch to Prosecution though, obviously. Although the writers are clearly HOPING everyone will love her. Now when I say 'proper main lawyer' I don't believe she'd be the only lawyer character in the game... but she'd probably be... how Apollo was in this game? (vague since I haven't played but I think you know what I mean.) Or getting yet more story around her while Phoenix and Apollo (I don't think they'd ditch either?) are more there for marketing hooks. I'm not sure she'll ever be the silhouette but who knows? The main 'protagonist' lawyers (self insert avatar) are always going to be the men though, I suspect. You're supposed to look at people like Athena and Mia, if you're a male, which are usually taken as a default target audience, even when a lot of females play this game.

This is apparently how they broke the supposed Phoenix vs Apollo deadlock: write a game that isn't really about either of them, demote both their casts and core storylines to a subset of (super)cameos in favour of new stuff. I always wondered what would happen in handling that issue. (But of course we used to assume it wouldn't take this long and TAKUMI would write it himself.) It's not what I would have done, but well, if that's the game we got that's the game we got.

It's not what I ever saw anyone in the fandom aspiring to want though, or predicting. I remember a few years back posting 'Maybe they will try yet another new lawyer in GS5?' to see how people would react and they not only claimed it would not happen, but were very hostile to the idea. I didn't think it would likely happen myself. In many ways it's the lazy option. 'Oh we still have Phoenix and Apollo around but we only superficially continue their other games or their stories'

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This is exactly what has been happening over the last several years of this franchise's growth: playing safe. It's a classic business strategy, and is one that won't be changed any time soon.

Nonetheless, I doubt the majority of the fanbase would genuinely dislike GS5 as a whole. The sales numbers are a sure testament to that. Certainly, for all the hype that it has been building up for all these years, it does fall short of expectations. Then again, there are also fans who hadn't set their expectations all that high and were pleasantly surprised to have underestimated the game. It greatly improves on the other games in the series beyond just conveniences for gameplay. Where it lacks in the trilogy's charm, it makes up with more interesting character and scenario builds.

In any case, now that the bar has finally been set for GS5, we have a better idea of what's to come for GS6, should Yamazaki continue as the scenario director: three-way protagonist wars greater focus on the core elements: the cases, the mysteries, and the overlying themes. This series has gotten to the point where all these new characters exclusive to certain games are becoming less and less memorable, despite becoming more and more colorful as time moves on. As a result, the returning characters also receive less of the spotlight when the scenarios are being formed. It's impossible to remove the major characters, but it's difficult to maintain a "proper" balance, especially when the developers have rather strong biases about certain fan favorites.

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Hm, you know. I don't really see what is that wrong with "playing safe", actually. It does sound kinda negative, but there is the reason the way they are making it is safe, right?

I wouldn't consider fan service (and I do not mean sexual themes) that much of a bad thing.

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Oh, no. That's not what "playing safe" is about. The writers are fully aware of the "chasm" (actually, it's a blurry line at best) that splits the AA fandom between those preferring to develop on Phoenix's story and those preferring to develop Apollo's. If they stuck to either side, they'd likely lose a large portion of the fanbase. Thus, compromise comes in by throwing both of them major roles - but giving Phoenix the bigger share - and by following the story of a new character that hasn't had time to be hated on by anyone. As a result, this is a game that features not Phoenix, Apollo, or Athena, but as a collective group. Although there's nothing wrong with writing like that, it does beg the question of how much diversion is required to let the new girl fit in.

Of course, it's not just about that either. Story writing comes in two general scopes: formula and unorthodox. (Note that the two aren't mutually exclusive.) GS5 follows too many tropes to feel original, despite being so in many ways, but it's one that critics can rate with more confidence than otherwise. On the other hand, unorthodox writing is usually discouraged against in writing classes because it doesn't fit into any one standard of critique and can't be properly rated. Imagine if GS5 suddenly dropped off all the returning characters in favor of a completely different storyline. How will the fans react? (Ghost Trick, on the other hand, did well in that it's original in terms of both gameplay and position of literary elements. If it were to gain a sequel, much of that originality would be lost by the second game.)

Fan service isn't bad in of itself; in fact, it usually draws in more attention than otherwise. The issues come when it's being featured too prominently or too loosely. The former suggests that the new characters will easily fade out of popularity because they're overshadowed (case in point: GS4). The latter suggests that the old characters don't have much point to being there besides looking good (case in point: GS5). Well, this is only expected; it's really difficult to find that "Goldilocks" point. And when it comes to guessing how the masses will largely react, it's one of the worst frustrations a game developer can have.

...Dang it, I wrote more than I wanted to again.

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I don't think we're getting fan service.

'Safe' is boring and mediocre. It means you just have sub-standard repetition of old formulas with sub-standard new characters. While the existing characters retained are usually shallow parodies of their older selves as they're dragged out long after their proper plot arcs should have ended (Phoenix) or aren't properly continued (Apollo)

Now with 'Risk' there's the possibility it will either be amazing and the catalyst needed to reinvigorate the series with something as good or better than the 'classic' earlier ones. Or that it will be awful. Arguably, Takumi took a huge creative risk with GS4 to not-so-good results (due to the failure of proper implementation of his vision more than the concept.)

'Safe' just repeating bad approximations of the old formulas the new writers are NEVER going to repeat Takumi's games, so just trying to use the same formulas in superficially different spins with a mix of old and new characters is never going to produce something as good as past games.

In long running things with forced extension of endless new series that don't just jump the shark and tail off till they die a horrible death, there's usually some transformative new series that throws out the old formulas for a proper new spin on the series.

This might include strong new mains that aren't just sub-standard spins on the old formulas they're replacing, and usually include the old characters (not just a subset of them, but ALL the important ones) in a subplot that actually continues their proper arcs from the initial series' they were in, in a manner they actually happened and everything, and the relations between them. (The fact it's a subplot the character's lives can be said to continue as if the past games occurred, and limited character development can occur in regards to more recent development, but you don't have to create new plots or significant development focusing completely around them any more.) If the new characters actually are new and not repeating the same old formulas then it's not just trying to do the same old thing with substandard 'replacements'.

All the above is what I've seen in every series (books, games, TV...) where the later ones picked up again to be as good as the originals (such as a 3rd series which was different but as good as the first, after a mediocre 2nd series was commissioned) rather than just getting continually worse over time.

Spins on the same formulas, however, produce rubbish, particularly if the characters being 'replaced' or 'returned' are mishandled/reduced to caricatures and bad cameos/don't appear at all. It doesn't matter if those characters aren't in the formula role because they 'don't fit in it any more'. Because in real stories where you don't reset the entire cast anew people's lives continue after they aren't in their original formula role. It's true GS2 and 3 did continue old formulas to some extent but that's why Takumi wanted that arc to end after GS3 and reset entirely with a new cast. GS4 although it did repeat some formulas did do something (quite a few things) 'different' even if it was incredibly controversial. However the 'different' from GS4 is gone now and the formulas are all that's continued. We don't even get character/plot development off of that game's resolution as far as I can tell.

That's probably part of why these writers were given a spin off game originally not the 'main series'. You don't judge a side series against the main games because it's understood its different not trying to 'replicate' someone else's work. But even here (AAI) they repeated a lot of formulas, like yet another magical Teenage girl Sidekick with a Tragic Family Past and in training for her gimmick. Oh please. And another Prosecutor (well Lang was an investigator) rival with a not-much Past. And more but I can't be bothered.

It's also why we latch on to things we know won't really be attempted in the series, like Apollo becoming a prosecutor, bombing the court, or even Gant being his father. It would break the stupid old formulas and produce something actually good enough to re-invigorate the series in a manner that might be different but maybe as good as the old/er ones. Or if Athena had turned out to be evil. That would be bad for marketing though.

Seriously, they could have just broken formula and made this game about Apollo and his past rather than bringing in Athena. (Phoenix could still be the hook avatar/protagonist just fine, too) It could have been about his father (which they could invent any plot about.) But it's always supposed to be about some new magical girl with her inherited gimmick apparently. (despite the fact Maya wasn't actually the sole focus of GS1, the Feys were always a subplot and the plot spread among them, same with Trucy, her plot was much about Phoenix and Apollo.)
And a new prosecutor each time, which is more reasonable, but that follows a formula too... and...

</end rant before I rant all day>

edit: I didn't read Rubia Silve Ryu's latest post when I wrote this...

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I always got the feeling that the writers tried really, really hard to make everyone fall in love with Athena. And while I can't say for certain seeing as I have never played the game, she comes across as incredibly Sue-ish to me. 18-year old pretty attorney AND psychologist showing up out of nowhere. One has to wonder how many times she'll be described with the word 'genius'.

I know a new game needs to expand its roster, but did we really need a new main character? Apollo Justice brought up more questions than it answered, and now the developers say they want to make a game that everybody can jump right into, most likely meaning they'll ignore a lot of older subplots.

That hurts the entire franchise if you ask me. I loved the continuity of the original trilogy, and I would much rather they dealt with Apollo finding out about his mother, for instance, before they start trying to make us worship Athena Cykes.

I'm being a tad dramatic, I know, but I'm a bit worried about the direction they're heading in.

Also, I swear I was going somewhere with this, rather than just repeating what you guys have already said...

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Erm...


Speaking of that, I'm not really sure why are you so worried about it. GS1 and GS2 also appeared to drop the matter with Maya's mother being there somewhere.

Also, they clearly did not abandon Apollo's character in GS5, so I'm pretty sure they're going to get back to that matter eventually, just trying to not give away much of GS4's spoilers. I believe in these matters you need to simply be patient, as GS5 is not going to be the end of the series.

Also, Case 4 and 5... definitely are example they're not just repeating old formulas, so I really don't see the problem.

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Having GamePad support, and when using the TV, show the court record on the GamePad would be a great Idea! I'd love to see a home console version of the game, however, I think due to its history, the series will stay on the 3DS/future handhelds. I don't think that 'design your attorney' would work, but it would be an interesting concept!

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Despite all the complaints, I have to admit that Yamazaki's team, while not quite as impressive as Takumi's, can do their jobs well. Although GS5 as a whole does feel just a bit cluttered at times, taking a closer look at each of the cases individually and without regards to the supposed overlying "dark age of law" gives me a better perspective. And besides, Turnabout Return was amazing. I'm so glad I bought this game.


Actually, they do; it's just not too obvious.

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Okay, the vibe I get with these writers, is they're fine at writing the 'classic' murder mystery crime detective story, perhaps better than Takumi. But well, that's not what made GS what it is. GS was as much about characterisation and character development and well... not very realistic. The classic murder mystery, the characters are really just shallow vehicles for the murder plot 'cause that's what it's about. And when they try to replicate Takumi by just trying the same old 'formulas' (which weren't formulas the first time) with their own new characters, it just doesn't work (and it's never going to.) Now of course you hear people say oh we should be GRATEFUL someone would continue the series now Takumi won't so we should be happy with anything. But I don't know. It depends on whether it's better to have the preceeding games tail off into something.... which is more a shallower parody/stereotype of the original games despite the awesome new graphics and gameplay and things. I mean I kind of see this game as only semi-canon, like AAI. It's a kind of unnecessary sidequest, it's fun to have a new game but it's not exactly adding all that much to the preceding games. Somebody here said AAI felt like a huge official fanfiction and even if this is a 'main series' game I don't see that it's really making any difference, since Takumi isn't writing it, and well, they aren't trying to write a DIRECT follow up. it's just 'inspired by GS4'.



Sorry, that's the argument everyone made about GS4. 'It's not going to be the end of the series just be patient Thalassa will tell Apollo she's his mother in GS5 which is arriving next year Takumi will resolve every plothole they left it on purpose for GS5 aka AJ2 which they're already writing they planned all this...'

No. You can see how those assumptions turn out. That's not how they write the games. They always write them with the assumption it's NOT going to be continued, even if they eventually are. For example, GS2 was a retrospective continuation of GS1. Takumi did NOT intend a GS5 despite all the ambiguities, as he very explicit has said. Nobody ever committed to 'GS6'. The writer/director (whoever it was) just said there'd be more of 'Phoenix Wright' aka the franchise and 'they're not sure what form it will take'.

As for old formulas, it's the 'new' characters and the plots/backstories around them which are completely formula. Every new character they write is just a bad rehash of a formula approximating mains in past games!

Athena herself and the plot around her is just a giant mashup of all the shallow 'formulas' you can take out of GS1 and other games!

Oh, A Tragic Backstory of her Childhood Trauma EXACTLY like Edgeworth in GS1!

Oh she's the Sidekick Assistant who is a Magic Teenage Girl In Training with a Magic Power, Magic Necklace and inherited it (the gimmick, psychology this time) from her Mother! (Maya, and Pearl since Pearl technically charged the Magatama and was there when Maya was kidnapped and soforth). (And of course the usual Ema, Kay, Trucy...)

Oh and she's a Lawyer As Well, thus the Mia analogue. Because Mia was the [female] lawyer around half the time to assist and related to the familial past plot.

And the whole story is about BOTH her childhood past trauma (Edgeworth) AND her family (Maya AND Mia). It's just like GS1! Except she takes over the role of several characters, just shoving all the formulas together!

Oh and a Prosecutor with a supposed Dark Past associated with her main plot? Hi Simon.

Really, that's not 'why' anyone liked any of the proceeding games.

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Whoa, slow down there. What sets GS apart from most other crime or court drama stories is the characters and their developments, yes, but to set the "mystery" part of a case aside as if it's an extra is a little pushing it. Obviously, it's not supposed to overshadow the characters we've come to admire, but if the murders aren't the highlight of a case, there wouldn't be a case at all in the first place. Then, the characters really would become "shallow vehicles" for a plot.

I'm not arguing for the generic murder mystery, as many of them are simply fictional interpretations of real-life scenarios, and usually they aren't cause for that much excitement. However, starting with one as a template to work your way up to something much more outrageous or incredible isn't a bad idea. What is a bad idea is to rely on any particular template, though.


I have no idea why they couldn't keep the Jurist system; it makes for new and interesting game mechanic potential. Perhaps by the time they considered/ remembered it, they were already well into making a game without it. Hopefully, it'd return by GS6 and can be explained as being in a "processing" phase before the official instatement. In the meantime, we fans can keep bothering them about it until we get a resolute answer.


That was during a time when they weren't sure how long the series would last. Recent sales numbers have inspired more confidence; enough confidence that Eshiro plans a GK3, despite the GK games proving themselves not as huge of hits as the main series games. We've arrived at the time when GS6 is no longer just a dream; it's just on standby while Capcom decides how much more/less funding to throw onto this franchise. If Eshiro's team goes back to making the GK games, we can hope that Takumi or another prolific writer on his team will take the reigns of GS6.

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...Okay, I stop here, I don't have arguments. Instead of worrying about repeating formulas you can spot really, really everywhere (TV Tropes might help) I'm going to buy a game when it comes out in English and just... enjoy it. Yes, people can just enjoy it, instead of going all out how the game is bad, because it dares repeat something. Maybe break the Always Murder formula, because it's just too repeatable? Or maybe the innocent defendants formula, it's so boring.

I can't understand you guys, really.

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I agree with this. I was refraining from commenting do to how useless my comment would end up being, but it's bloody annoying me how everyone seems to be going out of their way to find faults in a game.
Of course, it could be that they really are huge faults, but that I can't know until I play it. So far, I've seen nothing of the sort.

(What was this thread's original purpouse again? )

One can enjoy a game immensely and still discuss its flaws. I generally dislike anything that's supernatural in the series, for instance, but Maya is still my favorite character and Ace Attorney is one of my favorite gaming franchises of all time.

There must always be room for discussion. There is no denying that some of these 'repetitive forumlae' are getting a tad annoying and overused for no real reason, like super young geniuses and spunky teenage girl sidekicks.

People wouldn't take it so seriously if they didn't care for the franchise.

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Okay, it just gives certain impression, you know.

Hm. The only time when I got annoyed with it was Kay. Like being a "thief" had anything to do with advanced pocket hologram projector.

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To speculate on 'who will star in GS6'.
This requires discussing how these new writers write their games and the likely fate of 'new mains', like Assistants being retired (so it's still possible Athena will be demoted for GS6, following the stock formula they use... oh read my earlier posts...)





The 'formulas' they repeat are specific to this series. (We won't bother starting on the other tropes probably used as well...) Why would we want to play the same old character formula stories with new characters? And if they keep this way we can count on more formulas if they write GS6, which helps with our 'predictions'.

I don't understand people who not only think you should just act like every piece of media is perfect, and not just that (which is their right personally) but think other people as well should refrain from critical discussion. It's boring. If we don't think about the game, how are we supposed to properly speculate on the future directions they'd take in writing more?

You've got to understand that there are some people around who think it's just as interesting to over-analyse and critique things in their favourite series'. This in itself is fascinating. It's not the same as random complaining.

It's also different when there's different writers just adding new content to a favourite series, which isn't the same as just 'complaining' about an original game not to your personal tastes. We waited for many many years speculating on 'GS5' and what it might be so of course now it's finally here we have to critique it and see what strategies the writers used. And since we're supposed to be the target audience and pay for this, it's not like we have to accept it with unbounded blind gratitude alone like they gifted us some charitable gift ('don't look a gift horse in the mouth').

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Just wait until the writers get fed up with their own formulas. Then we'll get a teenaged boy sidekick instead. What a revolutionary revelation!


Well, we can guess some things. They've apparently made it a tradition to include things like the "flashback case" and "terrible tragedy involving the assistant character" in every game. But I still find it difficult to decide where the series will go from here, especially with how GS5 has been split into several protagonists at once. I enjoy the exchange of playable characters, but it becomes tough to uphold the concept of a primary "main character". That concept could be tossed aside for future games, but this series has always been all about Phoenix Wright in some form or relation. I highly doubt they would take that way.

And since we're on the topic of speculating over GS6, I'll just throw in a guess... There will be a cooking competition at some point in the game! Feast your eyes and mouths on gorgeous displays of cuisine! Just a hunch, given how popular Shonen Jump is with people who play these kinds of games.

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GK2-3?

In terms of mystery tropes, I was actually expecting a murder in a train or a ship in GS5 (after GK1-2), so maybe next time!

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And he'll have a sad past and a new gimmick too, no doubt. Oh, and he'll make all the fangirls swoon. This stuff just writes itself!

I still can't for the life of me figure out why they'd add a new protagonist to the series when they had so many questions from Apollo Justice waiting to be answered. If there's one thing I want in the next game it's continuity. For instance, just having major support characters removed without a word just doesn't sit well with me.

Oh, and if we're for some reason going to cook in an Ace Attorney game, I demand seeing Apollo in a pink apron and made fun of by everyone at the agency.

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Desserts are one thing; cuisine is a whole 'nother field!

But those are interesting locations. If they are going to do one on a ship, I'd like to see a wintry version. Then, we can finally use that dry-ice-to-seal-up-a-room idea. And then we will get to see Nick catch yet another cold.

We could also take the characters on vacation to an island resort, but that may be pushing it a bit. One way or another, they'd all have to return to the same district's court.


What's the gimmick? We already have a magical secret detector, a hypersensitive tell alert, and a hi-tech emotion-calibrating imaging software; not to mention friends who can summon the dead or cheat the forensics team. God forbid that the new kid has telepathy or carries truth serum. (Though I admit that a witness who carries bundles of truth serum everywhere they go is a hilarious concept.)


The main problem is the dilemma behind satisfying those who support the trilogy but not AJ. Sadly, it's still a large part of the fan community. Continuity in a series like this is of utmost importance, but "continuity" is a very vague term indeed. It can be either direct or indirect, and when it's the latter, there's the raised potential to drift. I can only guess that for GS5, they weren't sure how much to reference in GS4 when a certain portion of the fandom has refused to play it at all.

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True, though I still find it odd that they barely even bring up important plot points from Apollo Justice at all, especially when it ends with a new legal system and the revelation of Trucy and Apollo's connection. It's a slap in the face to those who actually played the game. I wasn't the biggest fan of Apollo Justice, I'll admit, but now that they're just sweeping it under the rug it makes me wonder why anyone should play the game at all.

Pff, truth serum? He'll use his youthly charms to make them spill the beans. Judging by the very limited experience I have with manga, shunning women with cold indifference should do the trick nicely.

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About this... Hm. It's really hard to come up with interesting story without past being involved, especially in GS.

I don't think we will be getting new main protagonists or assistants actually, but if we do, they will most likely just join the team, like Pearls or Athena.

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Damn, Edgey got competition... not that he'd care, but Athena Apollo someone would.


I actually appreciate how detailed the writers make the assistant's backstories, but by the time Kay showed up, I knew the assistant's role was in dire need of renewal.

I recall from the credits in this game that Athena's father is also a defense attorney. I'm sure that's where they'll be picking off from regarding Athena's story, should it be further developed. There won't be the need to introduce yet another assistant in this game.

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But there's no 'continuity' to GS1-3 either. Phoenix and Apollo get 'returned' but as for their past games oh we get a few cameos of a few token characters from their 'stories' and not much of their actual plot arc. It's all just the new stuff and new characters.
The only 'fanservice' to those who didn't like GS4 is that Phoenix has been reinstated as a lawyer. If people want to pretend GS4 never existed this game doesn't do that. It just makes the game seem even more 'useless' by ret-conning away the important developments of the game resolution aka the point in playing it in the first place. Basically the game is like 'GS4 and the whole basic 7 years premise' happened, (like if you perhaps played 4-1 and read a vague spoiler free summary of the game) but the actual plot completion of 4-4 didn't. It's pretty much the worst way to handle it.



It's kind of getting ridiculous. Ema, although a bit uncreative, the first time I guess it was 'novel' to have an ironic spin on Maya and Mia, partly because really it was the 'prosecutor side'. And Ema didn't have actual magical powers.
Kay is where reuse of this 'formula' (yes, by THESE writers) went overboard. I quite like Kay herself, but come on why does Edgey need one as well?
The first game worked because they created actual characters, not some magical formula for mains and plots to be 'reused'.

Since Athena is 'their' character, it's more likely she would return in GS6, like Kay did in GK2.


Sadly I think having a male sidekick (even with heir to the family legacy of magic powers, magic objects and a tragic traumatic past around a crime in the past) IS too creative for them. The fangirls are 'supposed' to swoon over the prosecutor with his tragic dark past. (Sure there was Franzy but that was Takumi's game and Edgey appeared in GS2 anyway)

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Didn't Edgeworth's father have a teenage boy sidekick in AAI2 though?


This guy?

Continuity in this series is supposed to be a bit loose. The games have always been made so that players could play any one of them without having played any of the others. By the time people realize the order, though, they've already played or started playing one. (It's not because of "tradition" or "formula" to make each of the games so loosely connected; it's straight-up business.) Thanks to the break in the timeline with the plothole of "seven years since Phoenix's last trial", even though the end of T&T takes place the following year. In that sense, one could play JFA, skip T&T, and land themselves in AJ without any consequence. Likewise, one could play GS6 without playing GS5.


I count the end of JFA as an example Yep, they need a change of rivals. Maybe they could try swapping the prosecutor and assistant personalities and see how things turn out.


Yes, and he only better supports my suggestion that the rivals and assistants need more diversity in personalities. One can be a prick without needing to be so condescending. It's already been shown how a prick can make a good assistant too Franzy.

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While true, the problem is that Apollo Justice ends with asking several questions: what will Thalassa do? Will Apollo and Trucy ever find out they're related? Why is Phoenix the only one who knows how Trucy feels 'deep down' (although to be fair, that question is a bit more open to interpretations, I guess)?

If Phoenix's character development from Apollo Justice isn't shown, and if they don't bother asking the questions asked at the very end of the game, then the only thing that installment managed to do, in the end, was to introduce new characters and divide the fanbase.

I understand that respect must be shown towards newcomers. However, blatantly ignoring unresolved subplots is not the way to go.

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I never took those as "unanswered subplots"; just questions left open to interpretation. I notice it's a recurring joke among Pixiv users that Nick would become nervous whenever the question of Apollo and Trucy's real relationship came up. Basically, it's become a joke. The two remain oblivious while the guy who brought them together whistles another tune. As much as Apollo can try to guess, he won't find out any time soon.

Thalassa has decided to turn over a new leaf and live as Lamiroir instead. I would prefer if she didn't stay in hiding, since there'd be little point to keeping it a secret anyway, but I have a feeling that...

The last point you bring up is more about how close their family relationship has become. It's only natural; she's lived with him for 8 years now.

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It's not really something 'open to interpretation' if they finish the game by revealing Apollo and Trucy's connection, only to not bring it up later. Sure, I can see how their special relationship could be the source of amusement in the fandom, and I'm all for that. However, the subplot itself shouldn't be ignored in the games because of that - hell, would you even know Trucy and Apollo are related just by playing Dual Destinies? They don't ever bring that up, do they?

See, THAT would make for a great subplot! That's why they shouldn't ignore it; there's just so much they can do with this, and it feels too important to just leave unresolved.

Also, even if Phoenix acts as a temporary caretaker or whatever (for Apollo at least, I mean Trucy is LEGALLY his daughter now, so there's not a whole lot Thalassa can do there except mess things up), he should tell them they're related. Of course I don't know how this would tie in with the plot of the game, but I'm sure the writers could think of something.

Yeah I guess, I just brought it up as an example. Still, while it wouldn't be strange for Trucy to feel abandoned and sad even after all those years, one has to wonder why they didn't bother showing the slightest trace of that before the game ended.

Have I derailed this thread horribly? It feels like I'm being incredibly...unconstructive

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No worries, we're still on topic. This is discussion of GS4 in context with speculation on GS6.

Not being able to tie into the main plot as more than a small reference makes construction difficult. Even if the scenario team wanted to continue it as an underlying plot, it has to be relatable to the most of rest of the cast. If GS5 hadn't introduced Athena, it may have been possible to salvage the remnants of the broken plot GS4 had left behind.

But from a different side, would it really matter whether Trucy and Apollo knew they were siblings? What would it change? I've been thinking over it for a long time now, and I don't see much room for further development. They already act like siblings anyway.

Hey, that means we can make an official "bring-your-obscure-relative-to-work day"!


Thanks to SuperAj3 for the sweet Athena smiley.

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Actually, I'm not even sure if they don't know already and how much, as it's never mentioned.

Also, I believe what someone mentioned here earlier - they don't want to spoil people here so that anyone new to the series can play any game and eventually go back to previous games without knowing much already.

I believe all we knew about the first game from JFA and T&T was "Phoenix and Edgeworth were rivals", "Edgeworth had to think about his past as a prosecutor", "Franziska might seek revenge on Phoenix for Manfred being dead (not even said that executed)", "Mia Fey died", "Misty Fey disappeared because of DL-6", both of last informations learned during the second case of the first game.

I might expect if they want to bring it up, they will be as vague as possible. But it's hard to be vague about "She is their mother and they are siblings", which is what we learn by the end of the game

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Another bad formula like copying 'P/M'? 'People think they're a couple and they're oblivious'? I'm sick of these formulas....

Anyway look the end of GS4 makes Thalassa and Phoenix look like complete jerks and bad parents. Phoenix can tell Apollo and Trucy they're related without having to betray Thalassa and her silly secrets (like being alive or having another kid). People always used to defend this by claiming it was ambiguous since 'when the time is right' might have been next week or something.
Now the 'official canon' (if we regard these new writers as that) is that yeah Thalassa and Phoenix are complete jerks and bad parents.

Similarly the Jury System falling down a hole makes Hobo!Phoenix look outright corrupt. The writers could easily have deleted it simply by saying it hadn't been implemented after all due to the Dark Time of Law, or the authorities decided more trials were needed, or anything at all like that.

The way the game is, it looks like the Jury Trial was about as legal and well-intentioned as the Forged Ace, and just a questionable 'trick' of Hobo!Phoenix to clear his name, nothing to do with improving 'justice' at all. Particularly since he just exploited it as a vehicle for his own ends: rigging in Thalassa, covering 'that' case and, don't get me started on what the MASON might have been. If we saw Juries as a larger aim of improving justice maybe Phoenix had a higher principle. As it is now it really looks like you have to interpret it as him not respecting the court and just exploiting it to clear his own name and do who knows what. By trying to 'ignore' this Hobo!Phoenix looks way way MORE questionable, not less. It's not swept under the rug because GS4 'still exists' before this game, apparently. Arguably, now the 'canon' is that Hobo!Phoenix is way more corrupt and a grey character than he was previously when it was more ambiguous.

You wonder what the heck writers think they're doing. I think they just don't think how their new stories actually reflect on past ones. Which is not acceptable when precedents in the series like GS1-3 tried to maintain continuity, (which is one reason why people liked it) and they 'claim' this IS a sequel to GS4. It doesn't add to the series, it detracts from past games as much as adds to them.

So it's likely that people who enjoy GS5 the most are people who never played any of the games before. Which is all about the $$$. The 'hooks' (Look Lawyer!Phoenix and Apollo Again!) are to lure in the past players aka existing fans of the series. They take us for granted. In some ways GS4 was the same.

The extent to whether they reset yet again, or do more focusing on THEIR characters (and maybe 'Athena's Cousin') is probably partly depending on how long it is till GS6 is made. The less time the more likely it is it will be a more direct follow up with their characters.

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That reminds me. The question of Misty's whereabouts weren't answered until T&T. As much as I'd rather not admit it, it's possible that the writers are only waiting to reveal another case involving Thalassa. Do they expect to answer most of the plot holes left by GS4 by GS6, after all? In this case, GS5 is merely the intermediate for an attempt to copy the first trilogy with a second of lesser overall organization. The writers made sure to include a lead-in prompt by the end of GS5:


In any case, it's definitely not the first time the writers have ignored characters' parents. It's pretty sad to think that Phoenix ditched his parents at some point and never bothered to visit them or anything. Or, perhaps he did, but there'd be little point to showing it in a game. Okay, then we can apply the same reasoning here: Phoenix did tell Apollo and Trucy that they were siblings, but it didn't matter to them and they act the same as they always do in GS5 and the next.

Same line of reasoning for why Kay gets to go roaming off on her own, training to become a Great Thief. Edgey lets her be because he trusts she won't get herself into trouble. (...Right, and he calls Nick naive?) But, to be fair, since she's an Investigations-only character, she doesn't get nearly as much spotlight as other assistant roles. It's only natural that her current whereabouts are completely unknown.

Basically, what is established as "official canon" is purposely made to be full of holes, if only to allow fan speculation to run wild. No one argues with the stuff that has been confirmed in canon, aside from some dissatisfied customers, but anyone can argue against what a fan creates to fit those holes. Well, this is exactly what I meant by "open to interpretation".

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The problem is that the writers of Apollo Justice MADE it a big deal. It's supposed to be a shocking revelation that we want to know the answer to. If it hadn't been important then they shouldn't have brought it up in that manner. Besides, as Icer said, it just makes Thalassa and Phoenix look like jerks. I wouldn't necessarily say bad parents, but it's very inconsiderate of them. What's Phoenix going to say if Apollo and Trucy find out he knows? 'Yeah I've known this for over a year, I just thought you should hear it from your mother, who's alive by the way'.

Also, just a tiny off-topic question: would you say Athena contributed to the game? Because from what little I've heard and seen, she looks like a real Mary Sue.

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