Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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See, I've heard quite a few people complaining about the fourth case, mostly because of its short length, but now that I just replayed it I can't help but feel like it offers us a lot during that short period of time. The opening is brilliant, with both Apollo and Blackquill out for blood, the defendant is more or less a space-y version of Larry (which might not appeal to some, I'll admit), the main witness is pure comedy gold and there are several good twists along the way (not to mention the ending, even if it was bound to happen at some point).
Excluding the criticism aimed towards its length, which I personally think is justified, the main problem people seem to have with it is that it is not completely resolved until the end of the fifth case. I can understand why some people would dislike that, and I'll confess it surprised me during my initial playthrough, but in retrospect, is it really all that bad? Does it really make case 4 worse? If anything I'm glad 5-4 stopped where it did, because I have major problems with the final case.
So what do you all think? Good? Bad? Great? Underrated? Or just inseperable from the fifth case?
..........Also.........did someone notice.............the ridiculous overuse of.................ellipses?
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Spoiler: Case 5
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Personally I see cases 4 & 5 as one big case. Maybe it would have been better if they had been merged.
In any case I liked case 4, though I found Starbuck annoying.
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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I can see why it could make sense for the two to be merged, personally, I like it the way it was. I think having the two cases made it longer, and in doing so meant that you cared about the characters a lot more. I don't know about anyone else, but I was pretty attached to that cast by the time it'd finished XD
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Jozerick wrote:
Personally I see cases 4 & 5 as one big case. Maybe it would have been better if they had been merged.
The problem with that, at least for me, would be that case 5 is a lot worse than case 4. I would find the quality drop even more jarring if it had not been split up, I think.
Still, I wouldn't have minded another case, that's for sure.
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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The problem comes after some coffee break.
Spoiler: Case 4 and 5
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Spoiler:
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Sligneris wrote:
I enjoyed Case 4 more than Case 5, actually.
Never thought you and I would agree on something.
I think 5-5 is the weakest final case in the series for many reasons, one of them being relying on a pretty lame plot twist I saw coming. It also lacked the intensity of the fourth case, even with a bloody kidnapping thrown into the mix (although let's be honest, it was easy to forget about that).
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Thane wrote:
Sligneris wrote:
I enjoyed Case 4 more than Case 5, actually.
Never thought you and I would agree on something.
I think 5-5 is the weakest final case in the series for many reasons, one of them being relying on a pretty lame plot twist I saw coming. It also lacked the intensity of the fourth case, even with a bloody kidnapping thrown into the mix (although let's be honest, it was easy to forget about that).
Spoiler: 5-5
...and there's fifteen feet of pure white snow
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Thane wrote:
Sligneris wrote:
I enjoyed Case 4 more than Case 5, actually.
Never thought you and I would agree on something.
I think 5-5 is the weakest final case in the series for many reasons, one of them being relying on a pretty lame plot twist I saw coming. It also lacked the intensity of the fourth case, even with a bloody kidnapping thrown into the mix (although let's be honest, it was easy to forget about that).
I agree, I don't quite understand why people seem to like Case 5 THAT much. I mean, it was a good case but it wasn't great. (The kidnapping plot wasn't really well done. I mean seriously, robots?)
Then again, I think the best cases were Turnabout Academy and Turnabout Reclaimed (Imo of course.)
Also, the game's seems to be using the AAI kind of ellipsis. It just leaves us with awkward silence.
"Oh holy father, holy Brother, holy master... My sacred mission is at last complete. With these two hands, mankind is saved. I am your will made flesh. In your name, I give thanks."
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Spoiler: Speaking of case 5
On topic though: I liked case 4. Being that interwined with both case 1 and case 5 it answered some questions while raising new ones, but because of it I tend to see it as the upstart of case 5, but regardless of not finding the culprit (there and then) it's a good case in its own right as well.
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Like plenty of other people, I view the last two cases as one big case... and a pretty bad one at that. The main trick was lame, the explanation for the fingerprints was lame, the big bad acted stupid, the identity of the big bad was both obvious and out of left field, and it felt like a carbon copy of 1-5, with some 2-4 and GK2-5 mixed in.
But most of that kicks in in case 5, rather than case 4.
The one good thing about the kidnapping, though, was Trucy. What does she do when she gets kidnapped by a bunch of bloodthirsty robots? Freak out? Nope, she calmly gathers information, and efficiently relays it to Phoenix at the first opportunity she gets. That's m'girl.
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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As a lead-in to the last case, 5-4 did its job well. It tied in the connection to the 1st case and its aftermath much better than what I had seen in the Investigations games. While it does have an abrupt ending and makes for a shameless plug-in for promoting 5 cases, attaching the problems of case 5 to it would simply decrease its overall quality.
I'm not saying I disliked 5-5, but it ended on a relatively disappointing note compared to what was established in the case before it.
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Sligneris wrote:
I enjoyed Case 4 more than Case 5, actually.
Aye, same here.
Spoiler:
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Bad Player wrote:
it felt like a carbon copy of 1-5, with some 2-4 and GK2-5 mixed in.
I keep seeing people comparing it to 1-5...it's been awhile since I played 1-5 and I don't remember much of the specifics so I I don't really understand where this connection is coming from. Can anyone explain?
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Cravat of Doom wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
it felt like a carbon copy of 1-5, with some 2-4 and GK2-5 mixed in.
I keep seeing people comparing it to 1-5...it's been awhile since I played 1-5 and I don't remember much of the specifics so I I don't really understand where this connection is coming from. Can anyone explain?
In the following spoiler tag, I've written out the plot of one of AA's cases, but with certain details replaced with blanks. Now I wonder if you can identify which case I'm talking about...
Spoiler:
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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2. Lana did not work alone while rearranging the scene of the crime.
Spoiler: GS5-5
Actually, you could put every case this way, with very few exceptions.
[Person A] murdered [Person B]. However, the state of the crime scene seems to suggest the killer is [Person C]. [Person A] testifies to [Person C]'s guilt. The player proves that the murderer was not [Person C], but actually [Person A].
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Bad Player wrote:
Spoiler:
...Wow, that's crazy.
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Sligneris wrote:
Actually, you could put every case this way, with very few exceptions.
[Person A] murdered [Person B]. However, the state of the crime scene seems to suggest the killer is [Person C]. [Person A] testifies to [Person C]'s guilt. The player proves that the murderer was not [Person C], but actually [Person A].
[Person A] murdered [Person B]. However, the state of the crime scene seems to suggest the killer is [Person C]. [Person A] testifies to [Person C]'s guilt. The player proves that the murderer was not [Person C], but actually [Person A].
Your version and BP's version contrast very much because you're clearly leaving out some important points, like the flashback incident and someone's attempts to cover-up the truth because they're mistaken. Besides, what you described is almost every other crime drama fiction in history.
5-5 isn't a carbon copy of any one case, though. It shares characteristics with 1-5, 2-4, and a little of 3-5 and 4-4. Yes, I just gathered every other final case across the GS games. A case becomes big when multiple incidents coincide to a single truth, and a final case is always a big one. It's as simple as that.
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Spoiler: 5-5
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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zpattack12 wrote:
I feel bad when everybody goes like, "Apollo got such great development" or, "Apollo was so great at the end of the game", but really I felt that the writing was a little weak when it came to Apollo at the end. This kinda goes into case 5, but to me, the way its resolved tells me just as much about the person as the way the person reacts. When Apollo becomes a little more of his normal self, the way it happens seemed way too easy for me.
Spoiler: 5-5
I agree 100% that the writing was a bit weak but I think maybe an excuse for that would be that he wanted so desperately to believe in her that all he needed was an alternative theory, even a really crazy one, to convince him. He didn't want to believe what he was so afraid of and so nudging him the other way wasn't hard.
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Cravat of Doom wrote:
zpattack12 wrote:
I feel bad when everybody goes like, "Apollo got such great development" or, "Apollo was so great at the end of the game", but really I felt that the writing was a little weak when it came to Apollo at the end. This kinda goes into case 5, but to me, the way its resolved tells me just as much about the person as the way the person reacts. When Apollo becomes a little more of his normal self, the way it happens seemed way too easy for me.
Spoiler: 5-5
I agree 100% that the writing was a bit weak but I think maybe an excuse for that would be that he wanted so desperately to believe in her that all he needed was an alternative theory, even a really crazy one, to convince him. He didn't want to believe what he was so afraid of and so nudging him the other way wasn't hard.
Yeah, I understand that's how he felt, but I felt that was the wrong way to do his character. To me, they needed to go all the way with Apollo's change of sides, and doing it halfway like that just wasn't good enough. It feels like a waste of my time if Apollo really was pretty much on our side the entire way, and it doesn't show anything special about his character. Really, it just further confirms the Apollo that most people dislike from his own game, showing he can't really do anything on his own.
*flame shield up*
Again, this is all my personal opinion, maybe I'll get it when I replay it or something, but as of now, this is how I feel.
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Sligneris wrote:
1. Lana did not insist on her guilt of SL-9 and was never suspected of it.
I never said for which incident "Person D" claims they are guilty of--merely that they insist on their guilt.
Quote:
2. Lana did not work alone while rearranging the scene of the crime.
I did not specify that "Person D" rearranged the crime scene alone; only that they rearranged it.
Quote:
Spoiler: GS5-5
I did not say that "Person A" rearranged the crime scene; I merely said that the crime scene implied the guilt of "Person B."
Quote:
Actually, you could put every case this way, with very few exceptions.
[Person A] murdered [Person B]. However, the state of the crime scene seems to suggest the killer is [Person C]. [Person A] testifies to [Person C]'s guilt. The player proves that the murderer was not [Person C], but actually [Person A].
[Person A] murdered [Person B]. However, the state of the crime scene seems to suggest the killer is [Person C]. [Person A] testifies to [Person C]'s guilt. The player proves that the murderer was not [Person C], but actually [Person A].
Yes, that is the structure of every single case in the franchise. However, it is missing many, many details. I do not think there is any pair of cases that are as similar in plot in the way I've demonstrated as 1-5 and 5-5.
Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
5-5 isn't a carbon copy of any one case, though. It shares characteristics with 1-5, 2-4, and a little of 3-5 and 4-4. Yes, I just gathered every other final case across the GS games. A case becomes big when multiple incidents coincide to a single truth, and a final case is always a big one. It's as simple as that.
I really can't agree with this. If you give me any pair of final cases (or heck, pretty much any pair of cases) besides 1-5 and 5-5, I think they're pretty different. My view on this is also tempered by my activity on AAO. There are plenty of really great cases there that are all different from each other and the canon cases. I just can't agree with "When you make a big, grand case, it's going to end up being similar to other big, grand cases, and that's just the way it is."
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Speaking of the flaws of 5-5 (I really should have just made a thread about this instead of 5-4...), was I the only one who found it weird that the police not only
Spoiler:
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Thane wrote:
I really must agree with Bad Player on this one; case 1-5 and 5-5 are almost identical in structure, and it's strange that nobody picked up on it during development.
There are two possibilities: either nobody picked up on it during development, or somebody did pick up on it during development... and they went ahead and did it anyway. Either way is quite disappointing.
Quote:
was I the only one who found it weird that the police not only
Spoiler:
Yes, so much this. Police incompetency is at its "best" in GK2-2 hands down, but I think this is a not-very-far-behind second.
Spoiler:
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Spoiler: GS5-5
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Bad Player wrote:
Quote:
was I the only one who found it weird that the police not only
Spoiler:
Yes, so much this. Police incompetency is at its "best" in GK2-2 hands down, but I think this is a not-very-far-behind second.
Quote:
Cosmos: But there's a good reason we failed to find the real spy...
Cosmos: ...A massive cover up by the government.
Cosmos: Government officials were too embarrassed to admit...
Cosmos: ...that they had allowed such a thing to happen at the hands of a spy.
Phoenix: Don't tell me they made the police rush the investigation?
Cosmos: They did indeed. And then, to cover up the sabotage, they cleaned up the story.
Also, I'm starting to realize that this game is overusing it's ellipses.Cosmos: ...A massive cover up by the government.
Cosmos: Government officials were too embarrassed to admit...
Cosmos: ...that they had allowed such a thing to happen at the hands of a spy.
Phoenix: Don't tell me they made the police rush the investigation?
Cosmos: They did indeed. And then, to cover up the sabotage, they cleaned up the story.
Also considering the fact that Blackquill was confessing to the crime, meaning that the police focused all their efforts into saying that Blackquill was the murderer while ignoring evidence that doesn't fit with their view of the crime, which I thought was a staple of this series. Hell, this DARKAGEOFTHELAW (tm) shouldn't have happened because a prosecutor was found guilty. It should have happened because of how poorly the trial was handled.
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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MILES EDGEWORTH!
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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It's an explanation but that's all it really is (to me, at least). It was a massive example of 'tell not show' and it seemed so damn hand-wavey. Most of the elements in this case were not demonstrated, implied or anything subtle; it was straight out "Hey this was a thing that happened which lead to this". I can't think of any specific examples but I found myself thinking it could have been a lot less...expository.
I mean, why couldn't we have just PLAYED the mystery we're defending
Spoiler:
Thane wrote:
MILES EDGEWORTH!
Ughh, he totally would have looked :/
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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It's also notable that this is the first time in the series where your client is declared innocent without finding the actual guilty party (well...initially).
Now, even if you apologize...I will not forgive you.
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Bad Player wrote:
Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
5-5 isn't a carbon copy of any one case, though. It shares characteristics with 1-5, 2-4, and a little of 3-5 and 4-4. Yes, I just gathered every other final case across the GS games. A case becomes big when multiple incidents coincide to a single truth, and a final case is always a big one. It's as simple as that.
I really can't agree with this. If you give me any pair of final cases (or heck, pretty much any pair of cases) besides 1-5 and 5-5, I think they're pretty different. My view on this is also tempered by my activity on AAO. There are plenty of really great cases there that are all different from each other and the canon cases. I just can't agree with "When you make a big, grand case, it's going to end up being similar to other big, grand cases, and that's just the way it is."
No, I never said they'd be so similar to be considered "similar". I simply suggested that there's always room for parallel interpretations, between two certain cases more so than between two others.
I'll take you up on that challenge, then. Take cases 3-4 and 4-4. Aside from the obvious differences, what are their similarities? There's someone in each claiming guilt to cover up for another, despite that person who's being protected did some naughty things to change the state of the crime scene. Said victim was also engaged in a blackmailing scheme, which eventually led to someone's arrest. Neither lawyer heading the case succeeded with revealing the truth behind the incident because the accused died or fled (and died later).
If we're going to ignore everything in 5-5 to focus in on the points that it shares with 1-5, it would naturally seem like they're pretty similar.
I'm not trying to tie every case together as if there's anything suggesting a greater mechanism at work behind the scenes, but it's best to keep an open mind about making comparisons.
Thane wrote:
While you've got a point, Sumguy, the "Dark Age of the Law" (I stand by my explanation of this term as not having seen a blockbuster; everyone's casually referencing it and you have no idea what they're talking about) hadn't started yet, and it would've been nigh-impossible to MISS the injured man covering his face wearing a jacket with a cut on it. Also, keep in mind that Edgeworth, who had been personally trying to uncover the truth behind the case for some time, didn't even once think about rewinding the tape.
MILES EDGEWORTH!
MILES EDGEWORTH!
Come on, man, it's not his fault it never reached his desk!
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
I'll take you up on that challenge, then. Take cases 3-4 and 4-4. Aside from the obvious differences, what are their similarities? There's someone in each claiming guilt to cover up for another, despite that person who's being protected did some naughty things to change the state of the crime scene. Said victim was also engaged in a blackmailing scheme, which eventually led to someone's arrest. Neither lawyer heading the case succeeded with revealing the truth behind the incident because the accused died or fled (and died later).
Wait, who was claiming the guilt in 4-4? I thought both Zak and Valant were saying that they were innocent.
Quote:
If we're going to ignore everything in 5-5 to focus in on the points that it shares with 1-5, it would naturally seem like they're pretty similar.
...And if we take the points in 5-5 that it doesn't share with 1-5, then they end up being shared with some other case >_>
The fact that the story was the same as 1-5's is only part of it. The other part is that the foreshadowing made it so obvious that that's what the story was going to be. That thing I wrote earlier in the thread to show how similar 1-5 and 5-5 are? I could have written it before the trial in 5-2.
Playing through a story when I had already played through it before and already knew what was going to happen just made the game... boring.
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Bad Player wrote:
Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
I'll take you up on that challenge, then. Take cases 3-4 and 4-4. Aside from the obvious differences, what are their similarities? There's someone in each claiming guilt to cover up for another, despite that person who's being protected did some naughty things to change the state of the crime scene. Said victim was also engaged in a blackmailing scheme, which eventually led to someone's arrest. Neither lawyer heading the case succeeded with revealing the truth behind the incident because the accused died or fled (and died later).
Wait, who was claiming the guilt in 4-4? I thought both Zak and Valant were saying that they were innocent.
And yet, Zak vanished from the courtroom, hoping that it'd take some of the suspicion off of Valant, upon realizing that the trial couldn't continue. I don't remember the exact lines, but I do remember that conversation between Zak and Phoenix at the restaurant.
Quote:
Quote:
If we're going to ignore everything in 5-5 to focus in on the points that it shares with 1-5, it would naturally seem like they're pretty similar.
...And if we take the points in 5-5 that it doesn't share with 1-5, then they end up being shared with some other case >_>
The fact that the story was the same as 1-5's is only part of it. The other part is that the foreshadowing made it so obvious that that's what the story was going to be. That thing I wrote earlier in the thread to show how similar 1-5 and 5-5 are? I could have written it before the trial in 5-2.
Playing through a story when I had already played through it before and already knew what was going to happen just made the game... boring.
Hey, now. You were the one who insisted that 5-5 was a "carbon copy" of 1-5. I have already admitted that 5-5 resembles a culmination of various other cases, but it's not unexpected. This game has quite its share of parallels to previous games anyway. What made 5-5 exciting wasn't what we already knew, but what we didn't expect. This series isn't called Gyakuten Saiban for nothing.
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1/3/19 edit: The project has officially been moved to a new blog at https://gsvsaa.blogspot.com/ Further updates will be pending.
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1/3/19 edit: The project has officially been moved to a new blog at https://gsvsaa.blogspot.com/ Further updates will be pending.
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
And yet, Zak vanished from the courtroom, hoping that it'd take some of the suspicion off of Valant, upon realizing that the trial couldn't continue. I don't remember the exact lines, but I do remember that conversation between Zak and Phoenix at the restaurant.
Hmm... Okay, in vague terms, the implications in that resemble the stuff in 3-4. I'll give you that some similarities are there in the details, but the story, flow, and atmosphere of the two are quite different, whereas they're pretty similar in 1-5 and 5-5. On top of that, you're talking about the flashback section of 4-4, and the entire case of 3-4. You could argue that 3-4 is basically just a "flashback case" for 3-5, but 3-5 and the non-flashback portion of 4-4.
In short: I'll admit 3-4 and 4-4 have some similarities, but I don't think they're nearly on the same level as 1-5 and 5-5.
Quote:
Hey, now. You were the one who insisted that 5-5 was a "carbon copy" of 1-5. I have already admitted that 5-5 resembles a culmination of various other cases, but it's not unexpected. This game has quite its share of parallels to previous games anyway. What made 5-5 exciting wasn't what we already knew, but what we didn't expect. This series isn't called Gyakuten Saiban for nothing.
Everything in 5-5 was either expected or lame.
(For me, at least xP)
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Spoiler: 5-5
The home of the Gyakuten Saiban vs Ace Attorney blog: http://gyakutengagotoku.tumblr.com
1/3/19 edit: The project has officially been moved to a new blog at https://gsvsaa.blogspot.com/ Further updates will be pending.
AA fanfiction archive: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31369
Yakuza/RGG fanfiction archive: https://archiveofourown.org/users/rubia ... /rubia_ryu
My misc translation and work promos here at http://rubiaryutheroyal.tumblr.com
1/3/19 edit: The project has officially been moved to a new blog at https://gsvsaa.blogspot.com/ Further updates will be pending.
AA fanfiction archive: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31369
Yakuza/RGG fanfiction archive: https://archiveofourown.org/users/rubia ... /rubia_ryu
My misc translation and work promos here at http://rubiaryutheroyal.tumblr.com
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Spoiler: 5-5
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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plsontaesung wrote:
I liked the space and cosmos theme in early case 4 and I agree with Thane.
The problem comes after some coffee break.
The problem comes after some coffee break.
Spoiler: Case 4 and 5
Spoiler:
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