Athena's character (SPOILERS) : Themis Legal Academy (GS5)

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:26 pm

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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Thane wrote:

While I'm sure they're more concerned with sales, I highly doubt general feedback on forum won't reach them. While they may not dramatically change anything, I think it's safe to say they'll listen to the fans a bit. Now, whether or not they'll listen to non-Japanese fans is another question.

Well, it's true they do still hear feedback plenty of places. Forums / message boards are just some of those mediums where a consensus of feedback is easily lost amid the constant bombardment of posts. It's not efficient for setting up surveys, needless to say. Besides, Japanese forums share our love and hate of certain characters all the same, so us non-Japanese fans won't need to worry.

Quote:

I meant Trucy. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. Even though she's related to two protagonists and has several loose plot threads dangling, we still know very little about her and what makes her special. However, judging by the current team's inability to write anything other than panty jokes, I'm not very optimistic about her growth as a character.

Well, in the Quiz DLC, she had jokes about Japanese stuff. It's clear she's an otaku in development. :D

No, but really. Given how sketchily the Gramarye line was introduced and concluded, I honestly don't care what kind of development she gets, as long as it's valid development. As the daughter of a famous magician whose reputation turned to dirt, Trucy doesn't have much standing in the world of entertainment to grow as a star. She can't drop it, so the only choice she has is to work for her place in the spotlight. Unfortunately, the path of a growing magician isn't parallel with the path of a rookie lawyer, and this game is still about crime drama. She has little experience with solving crimes, even if she can work out the mysteries, and she can't infiltrate places as easily as Kay can. This may be harsh, but she's even more useless than Maya from a strictly professional perspective. But hey, at least she's eager to help... unless it involves revealing a magician's secret, apparently.

Quote:

I highly doubt they'll touch upon Athena's more confusing merits and deeds whether they opt to kill her or not (which they obviously won't). I'm just saying it would solve a lot of things permanently, all while giving us a nice, emotionally engaging case (my emotion would be joy, of course)

Oh, you. :3 You're not alone on that, but I still have to say that it'd be a shame. ~~I mean, who else is gonna be able to tweet to friends in the middle of a trial?~~ Still, having one more lawyer under Nick's management really help boosts his image as a boss. (Heck, that's pretty much the only image he has by this point.) It'd be sad - in several ways - if he had more than one lawyer under his wing for only a year and then she goes kaput.

Quote:

See, that's what I'm saying: with Athena around as both a protagonist and assistant, the cast has suddenly become a lot more bloated and limited. Granted, it's not hard to do better than Dual Destinies where she appeared in every single case. Phoenix now really needs to spend more time with practically everyone but Athena, all while staying in the background as the wise mentor figure. Yeah, why was Athena introduced in the first place, again?

That's a contradiction, actually. (Oh, uh, Objection!) Phoenix can't spend more time with the others AND stay in the background. One who is the playable character or with that person will be able to interact with everyone. One who is in the background as the occasional help will end up being overshadowed because we're not following that person. While the game could tell us "he's been hanging around with Maya & Pearl again", it wouldn't add anything. It'd be better to show it, but unless Phoenix is the one on the case, I doubt Apollo will stay around long enough for this scene to be more than just a rally party.

Quote:

Spoiler:

Bad Player wrote:

JesusMonroe wrote:

Out of curiosity, assuming Athena is in GS6 (which she likely most definitely will be), what would you guys want to change about her character besides her killing off? Or do you think her character is too far gone?

What I would've wanted most was (1) a few years older, and (2) her trauma affecting her performance in court more (instead of going "ADSLKFJDSLKFJDSLKFADJFLFASNnvm I'm good" a mere two times. Not saying she had to full-on BSOD constantly, but just choke with her words a few times (After all, DD doesn't have enough ellipses!))

If I recall correctly, the only game with a span of ellipses across the entire text box is T&T, and it's from the judge - only in the Jap ver. of course.

Quote:

It's a catch-22 though, because I don't want Athena to have screentime because she's a bad character, so... I don't want her to have the screentime to do these things xP

Ooh, there's a thought. Let's make her a butt-monkey lawyer by laying all the blunt force trauma on her in later installments! I mean, it's only so long that Nick can go on being invincible.

...but the hospital bills, man.

Quote:

This is just a totally random thought, but they could do a plotline involving them messing up and getting a guilty verdict, maybe? It hasn't been done before, and screwing up and costing the case would fit a lot more with Athena's "emotional rookie" persona than Polly's or Nick's.

I'm with this. As I said, she's still a rookie with plenty of room to build up more experience. Still, it could even work with Polly, as he's never gone through that sort of situation before either.

Quote:

Spoiler: GK2

There's something about the writing in Japanese that just can't be preserved once translated. You get where I'm coming from, right? There's some special sort of impression that we who understand Japanese can get out of it, and I'm not talking about the puns.

However, I still find the English script funnier overall because they have more room for silliness. Swing-and-miss sometimes.

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Last edited by Rubia Ryu the Royal on Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:31 pm

Pierre

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linkenski wrote:

I wish the explanation given wasn't that she had special hearing, and I honestly wish they'd just been more consequent and kept Pearl out of the game or removed Athena from case 2 -- heck, even just make the mood-matrix entirely accessible through a computer that'd not require Athena's help for neither Apollo or Phoenix' trials.

Yeah I remember being utterly confused before the game came out whether the Mood Matrix was just a tool and if we took the magic necklace and the glove off of Athena and gave them to Apollo and Phoenix then it could work just as well. I was told it would be explained but...it wasn't really well explained, supposedly her emotion hearing ability ties into it but it's just such a mess I've got no idea what would work.

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:47 pm

JesusMonroe

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Thane wrote:

Thirdly, if she were to be killed off, that might actually make for a very interesting and emotionally investing case. Apollo breaks down, Trucy or Lamiroir is suspected of killing her, Blackquill is the prosecutor, having wasted seven years of his life in jail defending someone who died anyway.

I realize you said we shouldn't kill her off, and I know a lot of people will disagree with me and I know Mr. Yamazaki won't kill off his new pet so easily, but I just feel like it would be for the best.

Well, the reason I said not to kill her off is because I wanted to know what a realistic solution to the Athena problem would be and Athena is not going to get killed off in all likelihood.

For the record, I do really like your idea for a case, but I'd lose a lot of respect for Yamazaki (or Eshiro? Whatever) if they decided to kill Athena off from fan pressure rather than trying to actually fix her

Thane wrote:

Spoiler:

I think the opposite of you on this. I generally love the assistants except for Maya, who I think is ok (Not trying to beat a dead horse. And, I guess I'd put Athena below her now, but she's basically everything except the Prosecutor). Kay, Pearl, Trucy, and Ema are some of my favorite characters and Kay is my favorite. Though, I have heard the complaint, "Why does Edgeworth even put up with Kay?" a lot and it's kind of confusing to me. In AAI-3, she rescued him from the kidnappers and then she proved her worth with Little Thief. She was just a little girl in Case 4 and in Case 5, she convinced Edgeworth to go along with her, and he does so he can close the book on the Yatagarasu. By then, he just likes her company (as evident by AAI2-4) and cares for her. Is that hard to believe? Just because Edgeworth is serious doesn't mean he can't like a girl like Kay (he likes the Steel Samurai after all). Plus, they have similarities. They're parents were both murdered by an opposing lawyer causing them to fight for the truth (or steal it, in Kay's case)

Bad Player wrote:

This is just a totally random thought, but they could do a plotline involving them messing up and getting a guilty verdict, maybe? It hasn't been done before, and screwing up and costing the case would fit a lot more with Athena's "emotional rookie" persona than Polly's or Nick's.

I actually really like this idea, though, it's part of your catch-22. The rest of the case would definitely still focus on Athena and her effort to resolve her mistake

Bad Player wrote:

Spoiler: GK2

She was in three cases in GK :p

But yeah, I agree with you. She's definitely in GK2 more

linkenski wrote:

Gah, I feel like Athena was similar to Kay in some ways, but with Kay it made more sense to have her around because Edgeworth didn't have his version of a perky female side-kick like Phoenix' Maya Fey or Apollo's Trucy Wright. So I've been thinking: Since Athena was more of a side-kick than a protagonist IMO (considering she only had one case out of 5(/6) in which she was the playable Lawyer) who was she for? She ended up sidelining Trucy in favor of herself as Apollo's assistant and Pearl could've been a potentially more prominent character as Phoenix' side-kick if it wasn't for the fact that the game needed Athena for her Psychological analysis during trials.

I wish the explanation given wasn't that she had special hearing, and I honestly wish they'd just been more consequent and kept Pearl out of the game or removed Athena from case 2 -- heck, even just make the mood-matrix entirely accessible through a computer that'd not require Athena's help for neither Apollo or Phoenix' trials.

I remember the first thing I thought when I saw the game, that "Oh, Phoenix is the protagonist again, and they made a new Maya Fey-ish character as his new assistant" so I supposed she would be at Phoenix' side throughout the whole game. In the end the constant half-baked switching around of assistants and attorneys made the game feel a bit too turbulent IMO, and if Trucy and Pearls had been kept out of the game completely I wouldn't have the same feeling of Athena "being in the way" all the time.

Agreed. I had the same thought process. Hell, I thought it was annoying that Athena had too big a role in CASE 2. As for Pearl, well, at least we got to see her older? That was kind of nice (I was expecting her to channel Candice Arme at some point, though).

Pierre wrote:

Yeah I remember being utterly confused before the game came out whether the Mood Matrix was just a tool and if we took the magic necklace and the glove off of Athena and gave them to Apollo and Phoenix then it could work just as well. I was told it would be explained but...it wasn't really well explained, supposedly her emotion hearing ability ties into it but it's just such a mess I've got no idea what would work.

They don't explain what "the voices of the heart" are, but I took it as her being able to selectively hear tiny changes in people's heartbeat, voices, etc. I think the game does say the Mood Matrix is simply a visual representation of the data she inputs

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:55 am

Thane

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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:

Thane wrote:

Quote:

See, that's what I'm saying: with Athena around as both a protagonist and assistant, the cast has suddenly become a lot more bloated and limited. Granted, it's not hard to do better than Dual Destinies where she appeared in every single case. Phoenix now really needs to spend more time with practically everyone but Athena, all while staying in the background as the wise mentor figure. Yeah, why was Athena introduced in the first place, again?

That's a contradiction, actually. (Oh, uh, Objection!) Phoenix can't spend more time with the others AND stay in the background. One who is the playable character or with that person will be able to interact with everyone.

That was my very point. Since Phoenix really should stick to the background, it would have made more sense for him to resolve old plotlines, hang out with his friends once he reclaimed his badge and take on a particularly difficult case when things got sour; NOT start a completely new relationship with a new character who appeared out of the blue, effectively putting things like Apollo and Trucy's subplot on hold, one which Phoenix should be very heavily involved in (and receive some well-earned shit for his behavior as a parent and mentor).

The problem I personally have now after so much time was spent on developing Athena is that I want to see Phoenix interact with practically everybody else, but I don't really want him to be in the spotlight. Like I said earlier, he should be the guy who steps in when things just get too crazy or important. It sounds like an oxymoron, but that's just how I feel.

Also if Athena gets in the way of the Apollo/Trucy/Thalassa/Phoenix/Gramarye subplot I will punch a kitty. I don't care if their solution to keeping her out of it is sending her to the bloody moon to practise space law, I'm fine with it as long as it keeps her stupid grin off of my screen.

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:45 pm

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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Thane wrote:

That was my very point. Since Phoenix really should stick to the background, it would have made more sense for him to resolve old plotlines, hang out with his friends once he reclaimed his badge and take on a particularly difficult case when things got sour; NOT start a completely new relationship with a new character who appeared out of the blue, effectively putting things like Apollo and Trucy's subplot on hold, one which Phoenix should be very heavily involved in (and receive some well-earned shit for his behavior as a parent and mentor).

The problem I personally have now after so much time was spent on developing Athena is that I want to see Phoenix interact with practically everybody else, but I don't really want him to be in the spotlight. Like I said earlier, he should be the guy who steps in when things just get too crazy or important. It sounds like an oxymoron, but that's just how I feel.

Also if Athena gets in the way of the Apollo/Trucy/Thalassa/Phoenix/Gramarye subplot I will punch a kitty. I don't care if their solution to keeping her out of it is sending her to the bloody moon to practise space law, I'm fine with it as long as it keeps her stupid grin off of my screen.

...So we're back to ze infamous lawyer split, I see? Well, zat is ze consequence of having shree lawyers at ze office.

What "old plotlines" are there for him to resolve? T&T ended on a pretty satisfying note. AJ ended with a test trial that unofficially convicted Kristoph, and it then led into an official investigation, which led to an official trial, so he wasn't going anywhere. Well, I guess there's still the lingering "Dark Age of Law" theme, which was first introduced in AJ as a mention and wasn't resolved throughout two games. Maybe we need a third; I dunno, but it's a very loosely interpreted theme to follow at all. In any case, the Gramarye Line Incidents were tied up, albeit messily, by the end of AJ. The writers decided that it was enough and moved on with something new.

Then again, if you think about it from a different view, what else is there to further examine about the Gramarye Line? The only ones who still relate to it are Apollo and Trucy. Klavier was there just because of his brother, so he's not involved otherwise. It's out of Phoenix's hands because the final boss of the game was finally caught, and he's taken both of them in, so they're happy. Unless GS6 proves me completely batsh*t insane, I don't see Thalassa reappearing to confess to her kids. She left them just because she "didn't feel worthy", and then threw her responsibility onto someone else. Actually, it's still not Nick's responsibility for never bringing up Apollo and Trucy's relationship. What's there to gain if their mother isn't even around for the big reveal?

Now, if Thalassa does return from nowhere and shenanigans happen to drag her into court as the accused, I can see the conclusion to the case as the happy reunion. There will be no Apollo-getting-pissed-or-emo-because-he-has-mommy-issues-or-something. Trucy certainly wouldn't be displeased by anything as long as she gets to see her mom again. Phoenix will be glad to have that issue finally settled. Athena... er, well, she won't be on the case anyway, so yeah, she'd be happy for them. ~~And Maya will be asking Nick about Thalassa, since she is Trucy's mother. And then Pearl will be unusually wary around the subject.~~

Nonetheless, this applies for only one case out of an entire game. It's inevitable that Athena will be loitering around, but if her problems really have been completely resolved, then there's little point in having her featured anymore. I think you're worrying a bit too much.

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:13 pm

JesusMonroe

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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:

Then again, if you think about it from a different view, what else is there to further examine about the Gramarye Line? The only ones who still relate to it are Apollo and Trucy. Klavier was there just because of his brother, so he's not involved otherwise. It's out of Phoenix's hands because the final boss of the game was finally caught, and he's taken both of them in, so they're happy. Unless GS6 proves me completely batsh*t insane, I don't see Thalassa reappearing to confess to her kids. She left them just because she "didn't feel worthy", and then threw her responsibility onto someone else. Actually, it's still not Nick's responsibility for never bringing up Apollo and Trucy's relationship. What's there to gain if their mother isn't even around for the big reveal?

They said Apollo's real father died in a stage accident so I'm betting he was actually murdered.

I still think there's stuff to do with the Gramaryes (maybe I'm just delusional because I really like that plot line). We thought the Fey storyline concluded with DL-6 but then we got teased at the end of 2-2 and it didn't truly conclude until Hazakura Temple. I'd also like to see Valant find out Thalassa is alive (or just see him again. I love that guy :valant:

)

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:18 pm

linkenski

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I hope Takumi's new game could be an Apollo Justice game, and if not, It would be neat if the DD-team would get it together and adress the things most think they should've done in GS5. Then again, I think Athena is too valuable to the DD-team because she's their Mascot in a sense, and I'm really iffy on having her in another game if we also have Trucy, Ema and Klavier etc. I don't want them to tread on Takumi's toes, and maybe that's why they avoided dabbling in the Gramarye plotline to begin with :/

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:35 pm

Bad Player

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WAIT WHAT IF WIDGET IS ALSO A TIME MACHINE AND ATHENA SHOWS UP IN THE NEW GS GAME? GIVEN HOW OP ATHENA IT COULD TOTALLY HAPPEN

AAAAA NOW I'M GOING TO HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THIS FOR MONTHS

Credit to Evolina for the sig+avatar!

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:08 pm

linkenski

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Bad Player wrote:

WAIT WHAT IF WIDGET IS ALSO A TIME MACHINE AND ATHENA SHOWS UP IN THE NEW GS GAME? GIVEN HOW OP ATHENA IT COULD TOTALLY HAPPEN

AAAAA NOW I'M GOING TO HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THIS FOR MONTHS

I wonder what Shu Takumi would think of Athena, though. Maybe he'd have her time-travel to the Meiji-saiban universe and then have her be the victim of the tutorial case? Wouldn't that be sweet! :acro:

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:27 pm

Thane

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Bad Player wrote:

WAIT WHAT IF WIDGET IS ALSO A TIME MACHINE AND ATHENA SHOWS UP IN THE NEW GS GAME? GIVEN HOW OP ATHENA IT COULD TOTALLY HAPPEN

AAAAA NOW I'M GOING TO HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THIS FOR MONTHS

She goes back in time to teach Phoenix about law. Fun fact, she also taught Mia all about thinking outside the box, too. She's just that amazing.

You know, that actually happened in a Warcraft novel I hear. An author's own character goes back to one of the most important wars in the story and teaches a huge fan favorite all about magic. That's actually pretty unbelievable and almost fanfic bad.

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:07 pm

Bad Player

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Thane wrote:

Bad Player wrote:

WAIT WHAT IF WIDGET IS ALSO A TIME MACHINE AND ATHENA SHOWS UP IN THE NEW GS GAME? GIVEN HOW OP ATHENA IT COULD TOTALLY HAPPEN

AAAAA NOW I'M GOING TO HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THIS FOR MONTHS

She goes back in time to teach Phoenix about law. Fun fact, she also taught Mia all about thinking outside the box, too. She's just that amazing.

Is this before or after she shows Ami Fey the secrets of spirit channeling?

Credit to Evolina for the sig+avatar!

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:31 pm

Thane

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Bad Player wrote:

Thane wrote:

Bad Player wrote:

WAIT WHAT IF WIDGET IS ALSO A TIME MACHINE AND ATHENA SHOWS UP IN THE NEW GS GAME? GIVEN HOW OP ATHENA IT COULD TOTALLY HAPPEN

AAAAA NOW I'M GOING TO HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THIS FOR MONTHS

She goes back in time to teach Phoenix about law. Fun fact, she also taught Mia all about thinking outside the box, too. She's just that amazing.

Is this before or after she shows Ami Fey the secrets of spirit channeling?

Before, but after she becomes Edgeworth's private tutor and saves him from Von Karma.

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:44 pm

Pierre

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Bad Player wrote:

WAIT WHAT IF WIDGET IS ALSO A TIME MACHINE AND ATHENA SHOWS UP IN THE NEW GS GAME? GIVEN HOW OP ATHENA IT COULD TOTALLY HAPPEN

AAAAA NOW I'M GOING TO HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THIS FOR MONTHS

Ssssshhhhhhh! Shut up shut up! Not so loud...

The GS team might be watching for ideas....

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Wed May 07, 2014 1:28 am

venser

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While I liked Athena and believed she was a good addition to the Ace Attorney family, I think her roles were filled in Dual Destinies, and no further appearances are needed.

Wouldn't mind a small cameo in a future game, though.

As the victim? Maybe... :edgey:

Mr. Edgeworth, do you realize if we played by the rules, we'd be in court right now?

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Wed May 07, 2014 8:17 am

Going for Miles

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In a way it feels a bit forced to me with the transition where Phoenix goes from his hobo-persona to travelling Europe and randomly picking up a girl and teaching her to lawyer. That being said she herself doesn't seem out of place in the agency and I like her more in relation to Apollo than on her own, but even more than that I loved the dynamic between Phoenix, Apollo and Trucy in AJ.

(......Ack! I've run out of snide comments!)

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Wed May 07, 2014 11:01 am

Pierre

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GoingforMiles wrote:

In a way it feels a bit forced to me with the transition where Phoenix goes from his hobo-persona to travelling Europe and randomly picking up a girl and teaching her to lawyer. That being said she herself doesn't seem out of place in the agency and I like her more in relation to Apollo than on her own, but even more than that I loved the dynamic between Phoenix, Apollo and Trucy in AJ.

Yeah the lack of Trucy was a big problem for me. I also just don't quite buy that Phoenix would go from someone quite calculated and cunning into the old blumbering fool quite so easily. Granted there's plenty of times where we see him from the eyes of his subordinates so he's that wise mentor figure again but it's when we control him that it feels problematic. All in all I think I preferred Ceres' more laid back version of a reborn Phoenix.

Though that's another issue entirely back on topic: I think Athena COULD fit in the Agency, Phoenix is laid back, Apollo is dead serious and Athena is the wacky enthusiastic one so they all contribute their own angle. So there's definitely a 'role' for her as far as lawyers go. The problem is by this point they have too many lawyers for the standard number of cases to be split and still make a sensible story. All three can't fight for the spotlight alongside a new prosecutor per game and assistants.

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Wed May 07, 2014 11:31 am

JesusMonroe

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I miss Trucy. One of the funniest moments in the entire series is the beginning of 4-2 where Phoenix and Trucy are guilting Apollo into helping by saying they're going to go in debt and lose their home if he doesn't

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Wed May 07, 2014 3:44 pm

Going for Miles

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As far as the Apollo-Phoenix-Trucy-trio goes, I think this says it all:

Phoenix:
Dr. Wright, his assistant
Trucy...

Phoenix:
...and mascot Apollo.
The perfect team!

Apollo:
(Mascot...? Hey!)

Back on Athena though, I don't have a problem with her as a person either, as much as I (like kind of everybody else) have a problem with how her character was incorporated or rather laser beamed from a space ship into the story, and how it was bent and twisted for the purpose of Athena. I don't dislike her, she's fun and I can symphatize with her, but she doesn't really bring anything new to the table as a character. I think it'd be a little more tolerable if she was playable in more cases, as it is now she's yet another energetic teenage assistant with a tragic backstory. So she's not very interesting and I don't find her relatable either. I mean, I don't relate that much to say Phoenix or Trucy either, but I feel like I have a better understanding on how their minds work (and how it doesn't); Athena... I can't really get a grip on.

(......Ack! I've run out of snide comments!)

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Wed May 07, 2014 5:03 pm

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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JesusMonroe wrote:

I miss Trucy. One of the funniest moments in the entire series is the beginning of 4-2 where Phoenix and Trucy are guilting Apollo into helping by saying they're going to go in debt and lose their home if he doesn't

I really think Phoenix was richer when he wasn't dressed up in that fancy new suit and golden wristwatch. He sure got a lot of "donations" from his gaming days, so the office became stuffed with magic props.

And does he ever pay Apollo? Sure, since Athena is still a little kid - might as well be - he can take it easy on the pay she gets. Maybe he forgets that Apollo is an adult too.

Or maybe those expenses are actually managed by Trucy. That explains everything.

Oh hey, it also explains why we don't see much of Trucy during this game. She's much too busy watching the office and being swarmed by her own clientele... being a magician from a famous line of magicians, after all.

Besides, if we have Trucy again for an assistant, she's either going to have no clue about what's going on or going to solve the entire mystery before Apollo or Athena can. Either way, it'd be an entire case of her mocking Apollo.

This family is cruel.

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Wed May 07, 2014 8:35 pm

linkenski

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If Athena will indeed be the assistant or Attorney along with Apollo for GS6 (I hope Phoenix gets sidelined)then I hope there will be a case that revolves around Trucy, maybe as a victim or a witness (could be funny, and hey a similar idea worked extremely well in PLvsPWAA) OR EVEN la victim

This is the Dark Age of the Ace Attorney

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Tue May 13, 2014 9:05 pm

gallowsCalibrator

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You know... to me... it was uncanny how much Athena reminded me of myself. Same hair and eye colour, I have a toned-down version of that stupid flippy bang effect (opposite side though) and an association with moons (I always wear a moon necklace my father got me.) I even do some of the same poses she does in real life. My grin is lopsided like that, I stroke my hair when I'm happy, sometimes I hold my face when I'm shocked... just... a lot of similarities...

I'm way more pessimistic, non-energetic, and less driven though. So basically unless I'm hyperactive I don't really act like her... which is almost never. I'm not anywhere near as talented either. I am however ultra empathetic and sometimes get the feeling I can pick up on peoples' emotions -- I can intrinsically tell when someone is frustrated, fond of me, sad, just little bits like that. Not through hearing though, god no, my hearing is awful. Also yellow sucks. (And if it makes a difference, I happen to love robots -- I've been talking about trying to build one for years -- and pirates, plus I named my 12-year old cat Samurai.)

I dunno, I guess I'm just sharing this because I see she gets a lot of hate around here, and even though we're obviously not the same person I relate to her on a level that it almost hurts at times to see it. I think I'm understanding correctly most of you just dislike how shoe-horned into the plot she was and how talented she's painted to be, right? Not her as a person necessarily? It's not really my business either way, and I would never expect someone to change their opinion of something or anything, just wondering about it.

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Tue May 13, 2014 10:21 pm

Pierre

Gettin' Old!

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gallowsCalibrator wrote:

You know... to me... it was uncanny how much Athena reminded me of myself. Same hair and eye colour, I have a toned-down version of that stupid flippy bang effect (opposite side though) and an association with moons (I always wear a moon necklace my father got me.) I even do some of the same poses she does in real life. My grin is lopsided like that, I stroke my hair when I'm happy, sometimes I hold my face when I'm shocked... just... a lot of similarities...

I'm way more pessimistic, non-energetic, and less driven though. So basically unless I'm hyperactive I don't really act like her... which is almost never. I'm not anywhere near as talented either. I am however ultra empathetic and sometimes get the feeling I can pick up on peoples' emotions -- I can intrinsically tell when someone is frustrated, fond of me, sad, just little bits like that. Not through hearing though, god no, my hearing is awful. Also yellow sucks. (And if it makes a difference, I happen to love robots -- I've been talking about trying to build one for years -- and pirates, plus I named my 12-year old cat Samurai.)

I dunno, I guess I'm just sharing this because I see she gets a lot of hate around here, and even though we're obviously not the same person I relate to her on a level that it almost hurts at times to see it. I think I'm understanding correctly most of you just dislike how shoe-horned into the plot she was and how talented she's painted to be, right? Not her as a person necessarily? It's not really my business either way, and I would never expect someone to change their opinion of something or anything, just wondering about it.

Ha I don't mind her as a person no, I like a lot of her traits and think there's a place for her on the team. I just don't like how the world bends to her whim and how they give her so much swag.

Made by Chesu+Zombee

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Wed May 14, 2014 10:42 pm

Bad Player

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Yeah, I hate Athena as a character, not as a person.

Hating her as a person would make no sense, she does absolutely nothing that would cause anyone to hate her ~~(which is also part of the problem)~~

Credit to Evolina for the sig+avatar!

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Wed May 14, 2014 10:57 pm

JesusMonroe

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Bad Player wrote:

Hating her as a person would make no sense, she does absolutely nothing that would cause anyone to hate her ~~(which is also part of the problem)~~

Couldn't you say the same about other characters like Maya/Pearl/Trucy?

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Wed May 14, 2014 11:03 pm

venser

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I may/may not still hold a grudge against Pearl for...

Spoiler:

Anyways, I do think that they should have made Trucy appear as co-counsel in one of the cases playing as Apollo... but I guess it was necessary for Athena to appear in both court cases (as an introduction to her character and for her beginning to get involved about the space center...).

But I guess maybe there would be a benefit to her not as counsel in 5-4, as it would make the accusations against her more believable because her absence would add suspicion.

Mr. Edgeworth, do you realize if we played by the rules, we'd be in court right now?

(My father spent three years restoring this car...)

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Wed May 14, 2014 11:19 pm

JesusMonroe

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Plus, the first half of 5-4 didn't even have the Mood Matrix, so Trucy would fit right in (but would it explain why Apollo was still wearing the bandage?)

As for Pearl, she's just a kid. She couldn't possibly have known what her Mom had planned

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Thu May 15, 2014 12:34 am

Bad Player

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JesusMonroe wrote:

Bad Player wrote:

Hating her as a person would make no sense, she does absolutely nothing that would cause anyone to hate her ~~(which is also part of the problem)~~

Couldn't you say the same about other characters like Maya/Pearl/Trucy?

Didn't slap Nick when he tried to present the evidence to Manfred, broke the urn, gave Nick the diary page

bam

*shrug* "She's not enough of a jerk" was never one of my main complaints against Athena, so whatever

Credit to Evolina for the sig+avatar!

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Thu May 15, 2014 7:19 am

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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Pierre wrote:

I just don't like how the world bends to her whim and how they give her so much swag.

Swag? To pull off swag, you need a good entrance (or a good line). To make a good entrance (or line), it has to come sparingly. She's too hyperactive and all over the place to pull off the right mood.

Despite all the attention piled onto her, or all the attention she draws, she never quite hits the prime spotlight. You know that sort of little kid on talent shows who takes the mic and screams into it thinking that she's singing? Yep.

But ya know, at least she really tried to be cool.

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Tue May 20, 2014 9:36 pm

JesusMonroe

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The thing that I find strange about Athena is that I didn't mind playing as her at all. I more cared when she was in the role of the assistant. I found her perfectly tolerable and even likable when I was playing as her

I mean, I still think Athena as the assistant is ok. I don't hate her. I just wish she was in the game less. Some of her lines just bothered me (and I didn't like how she shouted all the time). There were a lot of weird lines in the game, though. Some of them just came off as weirdly childish (like Phoenix calling Apollo "Mummy Man")

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Tue May 20, 2014 10:42 pm

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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The general consensus in this thread has always been over how she's written into the story, rather than her person or even her character. I think some people are mixing up terms. It's called role integration, not character design or building. The latter is perfectly fine for a newly introduced character. The former is awkwardly placed.

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1/3/19 edit: The project has officially been moved to a new blog at https://gsvsaa.blogspot.com/ Further updates will be pending.

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Tue May 20, 2014 10:51 pm

JesusMonroe

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Yeah, I understand that. I was just saying how some of Athena's personality quirks bothered me but those same quirks didn't bother me when I was playing as her. It's not a huge deal. Maya bothered me tons of times, too

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Wed May 21, 2014 1:07 am

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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That post wasn't intended for you specifically. Since you brought the topic back up, I thought I'd add a little something here again, is all. Well, as "awkwardly placed" her role in this game is, she still has time to grow on us. °3°~♪

And Maya always gets the most attention, good or bad, period. Athena's got nothin' on her in that sense.

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1/3/19 edit: The project has officially been moved to a new blog at https://gsvsaa.blogspot.com/ Further updates will be pending.

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:45 am

TheBlackquillz

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Spoiler:

I AM BACK KIDDOS AND I'M WATCHING YOU

For me, tumblr is more easily accessible on a day to day basis, so if you REALLY want to, go there. :think:

OR if you want to, message me and I'll send you my Discord!!

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Sun Aug 03, 2014 12:14 pm

MBr

Enoshima Junko-chan!

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TheBlackquillz wrote:

Spoiler:

I've gone over all of the posts here before I signed up and it appears that most don't have an issue with Athena's character, but how she became a lawyer. As much as I love Athena, this part always bothers me. How did she go from a traumatized 11 year old girl who couldn't stand the outdoors to a brash young lady? I like to think Phoenix inspired her when he used her hearing ability to catch the criminal in the "jam" she talked about, but this is just my headcanon.

We're led to believe that Europe is lenient, giving badges to the young characters early. Franziska, Klavier, Athena, and likely Miles as well. I mean Klavier got his badge at 17, when his band went mainstream. If he can do it, why not Athena? (Although admittedly I don't understand why Klavier started young)

It should be noted that Athena is not a licensed psychologist, so we can't be sure if she has a degree. She specializes in the same field as her mother (analytical psychology). Going back to when Phoenix first met Athena, he told her that her knowledge of psychology could help in the courtroom, indicating that Athena knew a lot about psychology at her young age. Although at the same time, she mentions studying psychology which could either indicate that she went to a university to study it or she used her mother's research.

I don't know if this helps, but I know of a woman who graduated high school at age 16. She did this by taking extra credits via online courses. I wonder if Athena went through a similar process during her years in Europe, taking late night classes, weekend classes, and summer courses to speed through elementary, high school, and get to university/college.

Well, that's all I'm gonna ramble about for now.

11037

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Sun Aug 03, 2014 2:17 pm

Pierre

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MBr wrote:

TheBlackquillz wrote:

Spoiler:

I've gone over all of the posts here before I signed up and it appears that most don't have an issue with Athena's character, but how she became a lawyer. As much as I love Athena, this part always bothers me. How did she go from a traumatized 11 year old girl who couldn't stand the outdoors to a brash young lady? I like to think Phoenix inspired her when he used her hearing ability to catch the criminal in the "jam" she talked about, but this is just my headcanon.

We're led to believe that Europe is lenient, giving badges to the young characters early. Franziska, Klavier, Athena, and likely Miles as well. I mean Klavier got his badge at 17, when his band went mainstream. If he can do it, why not Athena? (Although admittedly I don't understand why Klavier started young)

It should be noted that Athena is not a licensed psychologist, so we can't be sure if she has a degree. She specializes in the same field as her mother (analytical psychology). Going back to when Phoenix first met Athena, he told her that her knowledge of psychology could help in the courtroom, indicating that Athena knew a lot about psychology at her young age. Although at the same time, she mentions studying psychology which could either indicate that she went to a university to study it or she used her mother's research.

I don't know if this helps, but I know of a woman who graduated high school at age 16. She did this by taking extra credits via online courses. I wonder if Athena went through a similar process during her years in Europe, taking late night classes, weekend classes, and summer courses to speed through elementary, high school, and get to university/college.

Well, that's all I'm gonna ramble about for now.

She would HAVE to have taken every possible course to achieve what she did. Bear in mind unlike the likes of Miles and Franziska she has no connection to the law industry therefore she has no influence in the field that could get her into a college or university. She also had a pretty poor school life marred by poor attendance and no hints as to how her education is. Sure she knew about psychology but this itself is a contradiction as she admits her mother never had any time for her so I doubt she taught her in passing and how much she knows is vague at best.

Graduating High School at 16 is normal-ish, folks have done well for that but they aren't necessarily prodigies. Where I come from College and University are above High School and their courses normally last about 4 or 5 years. She essentially jumps to this level from Primary school, and as a horribly traumatised and bereaved individual. Realistically no University worth it's salt would take her on, if not because she's not qualified but out of concern that given the recent tragedy in her life the workload and changes might be too much for her.

Of Course....

Spoiler:

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Sun Aug 03, 2014 2:18 pm

JesusMonroe

Gender: Male

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People complain about her becoming a lawyer because due to the information the game gives us (didn't do well in school, orphaned at. 11, had to move to another country and learn new languages to learn in school, deal with trauma) then it doesn't seem likely that she could've gotten her badge at 18. Klavier could've just been really smart. We don't know him
Edit: Pierre seemed to address the above

I don't think this makes Athena a sue, though. It's just something the writers didn't think through. Franziska was 13, Klavier was 17, Yumihiko was 18, Lang was 19, Edgeworth was 20. "What's wrong with another young character entering a professional field at a young age?" I'm pretty sure that was the mindset and then they added the other stuff about her character without thinking about how the implications of how unlikely it made her scenario. They just used her age to fit the story they wanted to tell and not think about how things might not mesh. I don't think they wrote her to be 18 so she'd be more "amazing." Plus, the law in AA isn't portrayed realistically anyway, so I think it was likely the writers thought it wouldn't be a big deal

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:30 pm

Nearavex

Y'know

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People still aren't over this? Not to mention the android hedcanons meant to supposedly explain the alleged "hypereducation"?
To be honest, why the hell would that be a problem, as long as she's still portrayed inferior in abilities and experience to both Apollo and Phoenix?

Overcoming obstacles, whoa. How unrealistic. Must be android.

*sigh* This is dull, really.

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:34 pm

JesusMonroe

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A new member was putting in their thoughts on a controversial topic. Nothing to do with people not "over it"

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:45 pm

Nearavex

Y'know

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Alright, fine, didn't notice that much before.

I just don't get why it must be controversial in the first place - it's even less a problem in the story and more in the background, since the game isn't centered over her amazing-ness at all, so I guess calling her a Sue is an overstatement.

I can't believe that people are talking about realism, too. The legal, educational and graduation system was broken since the first game, as Nick wouldn't even be able to pass the bar exam with the amount of knowledge he had. The complaints should be directed at the game's setting, if anything..

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:04 pm

JesusMonroe

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Nearavex wrote:

Alright, fine, didn't notice that much before.

I just don't get why it must be controversial in the first place - it's even less a problem in the story and more in the background, since the game isn't centered over her amazing-ness at all, so I guess calling her a Sue is an overstatement.

I can't believe that people are talking about realism, too. The legal, educational and graduation system was broken since the first game, as Nick wouldn't even be able to pass the bar exam with the amount of knowledge he had. The complaints should be directed at the game's setting, if anything..

I'm more don't like her role in the game (assistant in every single case besides the one she's playable in) but I don't really think she's a Sue at all and I don't really think the game emphasized her amazing-ness that much. It's the world of Ace Attorney, so I wasn't bothered by her becoming a lawyer at 18. I saw it as her being just another lawyer at 18, not her being amazing. If she was the youngest lawyer the series has ever had and everybody was a realistic age, then it would be a problem

But you can't really knock people for talking about realism when you were bothered by holograms being displayed outside :/