Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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I don't know, maybe it's just me and how I interpreted Phoenix, and it has been a while since I played Trials and Tribulations. But I felt like cringing whenever he was the lead attorney in the case either way.
Did anyone else have a problem with his character? Or other problems with him? This is just an all-around place to talk about Phoenix in DD, so have at it. (hopefully it's fine that I'm posting one of these, I feel a little bit out of place
)
Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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Though, you do have a point about the bluffing thing. He does it less but when he does, the writers overdid it. Whenever Phoenix bluffed in previous games (von Karma and the bullet) there was always some thread of logic he was following. In this game, he's like, "I'm just gonna throw whatever I can at the court and see if they buy it! *nervous smile* Awesome! I was right again!"
Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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JesusMonroe wrote:
I felt like a legend playing as Phoenix in Dual Destinies. I still felt like he was really experienced
Though, you do have a point about the bluffing thing. He does it less but when he does, the writers overdid it. Whenever Phoenix bluffed in previous games (von Karma and the bullet) there was always some thread of logic he was following. In this game, he's like, "I'm just gonna throw whatever I can at the court and see if they buy it! *nervous smile* Awesome! I was right again!"
Though, you do have a point about the bluffing thing. He does it less but when he does, the writers overdid it. Whenever Phoenix bluffed in previous games (von Karma and the bullet) there was always some thread of logic he was following. In this game, he's like, "I'm just gonna throw whatever I can at the court and see if they buy it! *nervous smile* Awesome! I was right again!"
But that's simply the result of many years of save-scumming.
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Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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drvonkitty wrote:
Throughout all of Dual Destinies, I was rather irritated at how they characterized Phoenix. I felt like they had turned him from that experienced veteran he was portrayed as in Trials and Tribulations and then later Apollo Justice, where he was more serious and far less silly about his cases, and turned it into "HAHAHAHAH LUCK AND BLUFFS LUCK AND BLUFFS HOHOHOH". It was less evident in the investigations sections.
I don't know, maybe it's just me and how I interpreted Phoenix, and it has been a while since I played Trials and Tribulations. But I felt like cringing whenever he was the lead attorney in the case either way.
Did anyone else have a problem with his character? Or other problems with him? This is just an all-around place to talk about Phoenix in DD, so have at it. (hopefully it's fine that I'm posting one of these, I feel a little bit out of place)
I don't know, maybe it's just me and how I interpreted Phoenix, and it has been a while since I played Trials and Tribulations. But I felt like cringing whenever he was the lead attorney in the case either way.
Did anyone else have a problem with his character? Or other problems with him? This is just an all-around place to talk about Phoenix in DD, so have at it. (hopefully it's fine that I'm posting one of these, I feel a little bit out of place
)I definitely felt some areas of regressing. I want to believe that maybe it's because he'd been out of the game, so to speak, for so long. But whatever image he presented in AJ seems to have been scrubbed away for the sake of... I dunno. I wonder if Phoenix "held back" parts of his personality when he first met Apollo, but when Phoenix no longer had to put on an act for Kristoph, he was free to be more Phoenix-like? But it's still weird how green he acts at the stand, but quickly switches to mentor role when assisting others.
I admit I've never been particularly impressed with the AAI team's character portrayals, though. Takumi did them best, because he knew them best. I'm not just saying that because TAKUMI!!! but because I have yet to see a non-Takumi team treat Phoenix and company with some consistency to their characters without "resetting" the development button and putting their own "spin" on what was already done. (Now, DD Edgeworth was decent enough, as long as you don't count all that b.s. about "ENDINGINGING TEH DURRRRK ARGE OF THE LAEWWWWWWWWW." But that's more of a story problem than anything.)
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Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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On the other hand, Phoenix outside of court was handled perfectly. He was treated with respect by his employees and people with ties to the legal system like the students at Themis Academy, had an air of confidence around him and helped Apollo and Athena pretty much the same way Mia used to help him: giving advice without telling him the answer.
Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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Sierra Mikain wrote:
I admit I've never been particularly impressed with the AAI team's character portrayals, though. Takumi did them best, because he knew them best. I'm not just saying that because TAKUMI!!! but because I have yet to see a non-Takumi team treat Phoenix and company with some consistency to their characters without "resetting" the development button and putting their own "spin" on what was already done. (Now, DD Edgeworth was decent enough, as long as you don't count all that b.s. about "ENDINGINGING TEH DURRRRK ARGE OF THE LAEWWWWWWWWW." But that's more of a story problem than anything.)
I'm actually fine with a lot of the characters in the AAI games. They've made some fantastic ones. They also haven't made a character I hated (that's not a villain), which is kind of a problem. Think about it. I hate Larry and Wocky, but I'd never say they're forgettable. The only forgettable characters Takumi has made are Penny, Will Powers, Lisa Basil, and Maggey
What I actually think the Yamazaki games lack are compelling murderers. Don't get me wrong, they have a few, but the problem with the killers aren't their lack of cool motives; they're just not fun. If Luke Atmey wasn't the killer of 3-2, he'd still be a really fun and awesome character. Here's a challenge. Describe the killer of GK2-2 before the reveal that he/she was the murderer. He/she was nice, I guess?
The only murderers who have any personality in Dual Destinies are the one from the second case and the one from the DLC, and the former is really boring
Spoiler: 5-5
Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
Y'know
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JesusMonroe wrote:
The only forgettable characters Takumi has made are Penny, Will Powers, Lisa Basil, and Maggey
That's strange... I wouldn't say Lisa and Maggey were forgettable. Especially not Maggey, really. On the other hand, you also didn't include Victor Kudo, about whose existence I completely forgot at one point in time...
Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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Nearavex wrote:
I wonder, when exactly are some of the biggest moment of Phoenix's problems with characterization?
One of the things that stuck out (for me)...
Spoiler: possible 5-5 spoiler
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Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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Nearavex wrote:
Spoiler: 5-5
I'd concur, I felt Phoenix definitely backtracked from his cool and calculated self that he was in AJ. It was disappointing as I wanted to see how they'd write Phoenix now he's much smarter and wiser. I just felt that him getting nervous (years out of court or no) when going up against a Payne just feels like they're undoing all of his calm and collected character.
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Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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Anyway, I think Edgeworth, Gumshoe, Klavier, Pearl, and Ema (even though her roles were terrible) are Takumi characters that are just fine under Yamazaki. Franziska and Apollo are the only ones I'd argue they improved on. Other cameos like Lotta I don't really have an opinion on
The problem is that in the old games, there was a lot of subtlety in things like Phoenix and Edgeworth's relationship and how DL-6 still had a profound impact on his life. I forgot what the line was, but Phoenix made some joke about Edgeworth's brow constantly furrowing (which is an overused joke at this point) and that he wasn't enjoying the victory like typical Edgeworth. It felt like a forced joke between friends and it didn't even make sense. Edgeworth isn't an emotionless robot. I thought Yamazaki of all people would know that considering he spent two games on him
Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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Pierre wrote:
Nearavex wrote:
Spoiler: 5-5
I'd concur, I felt Phoenix definitely backtracked from his cool and calculated self that he was in AJ. It was disappointing as I wanted to see how they'd write Phoenix now he's much smarter and wiser. I just felt that him getting nervous (years out of court or no) when going up against a Payne just feels like they're undoing all of his calm and collected character.
It didn't really help that when Payne brought out the bloody message as evidence, Phoenix's response to Athena's anger was "I don't understand it anymore than you do." I mean, really? He's seen four bloody/dying messages in his career and this surprises him?
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Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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Last edited by Nearavex on Sun May 25, 2014 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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JesusMonroe wrote:
I think it can be due to the fact that they didn't want to alienate fans too much. If Phoenix was always calm, cool, and collected, people would say he didn't feel like Phoenix and the Yamazaki team was too used to Edgeworth
Anyway, I think Edgeworth, Gumshoe, Klavier, Pearl, and Ema (even though her roles were terrible) are Takumi characters that are just fine under Yamazaki. Franziska and Apollo are the only ones I'd argue they improved on. Other cameos like Lotta I don't really have an opinion on
The problem is that in the old games, there was a lot of subtlety in things like Phoenix and Edgeworth's relationship and how DL-6 still had a profound impact on his life. I forgot what the line was, but Phoenix made some joke about Edgeworth's brow constantly furrowing (which is an overused joke at this point) and that he wasn't enjoying the victory like typical Edgeworth. It felt like a forced joke between friends and it didn't even make sense. Edgeworth isn't an emotionless robot. I thought Yamazaki of all people would know that considering he spent two games on him
Anyway, I think Edgeworth, Gumshoe, Klavier, Pearl, and Ema (even though her roles were terrible) are Takumi characters that are just fine under Yamazaki. Franziska and Apollo are the only ones I'd argue they improved on. Other cameos like Lotta I don't really have an opinion on
The problem is that in the old games, there was a lot of subtlety in things like Phoenix and Edgeworth's relationship and how DL-6 still had a profound impact on his life. I forgot what the line was, but Phoenix made some joke about Edgeworth's brow constantly furrowing (which is an overused joke at this point) and that he wasn't enjoying the victory like typical Edgeworth. It felt like a forced joke between friends and it didn't even make sense. Edgeworth isn't an emotionless robot. I thought Yamazaki of all people would know that considering he spent two games on him
I admit the characters in a minor or supporting role were done decently, but I will always think they did an injustice to Edgeworth in AAI. I'm all for respecting canon, but when canon ignores itself and continuity, it's hard to take it seriously. It's one of the reasons people do a double-take on Phoenix at the bench in DD. It's like the character development process is backward with this team. Phoenix stumbled about in the courtroom when he first started out! Let's make him still do it... eight years later! Edgeworth stood at the defense's bench and got a taste of what Phoenix goes through in T&T, not to mention he kept with him those hard lessons from his year of soul-searching! A month's time is enough for him to completely forget all of that and act like a floundering fool who resorts to illegal evidence in front of a
It's true Apollo was improved upon, but to be fair, we had little development on Apollo to begin with, so they had something to expand upon. As opposed to breaking down what was already established.
JesusMonroe wrote:
Yes, Trucy being kidnapped certainly added quite a bit of stress to him
I dunno, he didn't seem terribly concerned after the video transmission was over. Rather, it didn't seem to be source of great worry for him once the Not!trial kicked off.
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Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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Sierra Mikain wrote:
I admit the characters in a minor or supporting role were done decently, but I will always think they did an injustice to Edgeworth in AAI.
I don't think it's an injustice (though the illegal evidence moment was terrible) but when I say I thought he was done well, I'm more referring to AAI2. Even if he was done badly in AAI (which I disagree with), it wasn't so bad that it could be considered character assassination, at the very least
Quote:
I dunno, he didn't seem terribly concerned after the video transmission was over. Rather, it didn't seem to be source of great worry for him once the Not!trial kicked off.
It was sarcasm. Phoenix didn't care
Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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JesusMonroe wrote:
I forgot what the line was, but Phoenix made some joke about Edgeworth's brow constantly furrowing (which is an overused joke at this point) and that he wasn't enjoying the victory like typical Edgeworth. It felt like a forced joke between friends and it didn't even make sense. Edgeworth isn't an emotionless robot. I thought Yamazaki of all people would know that considering he spent two games on him
This part stuck with me as well, but as with other stuff I feel like it comes down to the fact that DD plays it too safe probably because it's the first mainline game by Yamazaki and he didn't want to step too far outside of the character-boxes set up by Takumi... but with that said he should've been able to do something more interesting with Edgey since he wrote AAI2 in which he did an admirable job of portraying his character.
As for what I think about Nick, I found he was too immature too, but worst of all was how 'goofy' they made him appear. His constant "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" in 5-5 was nonsense and completely out of character for him, and it degrades him into being a bit of an idiot. The meta-poking at his tendency of "bluffing" was overdone and never funny, just like Apollo's "I'm fine!" which was only used twice or so in his own game.
It's like Yamazaki had scribbled notes down to analyse Nick and Apollo's core traits and then he implemented them as plainly as possible -- by making them state their own concept as if they were caricatures of their former selves. If you have been paying attention in AAI, Yamazaki does this a LOT! probably onebof my biggest dislikes about his style.
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Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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JesusMonroe wrote:
I forgot what the line was, but Phoenix made some joke about Edgeworth's brow constantly furrowing (which is an overused joke at this point) and that he wasn't enjoying the victory like typical Edgeworth. It felt like a forced joke between friends and it didn't even make sense. Edgeworth isn't an emotionless robot. I thought Yamazaki of all people would know that considering he spent two games on him
This part stuck with me as well, but as with other stuff I feel like it comes down to the fact that DD plays it too safe probably because it's the first mainline game by Yamazaki and he didn't want to step too far outside of the character-boxes set up by Takumi... but with that said he should've been able to do something more interesting with Edgey since he wrote AAI2 in which he did an admirable job of portraying his character.
As for what I think about Nick, I found he was too immature too, but worst of all was how 'goofy' they made him appear. His constant "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" in 5-5 was nonsense and completely out of character for him, and it degrades him into being a bit of an idiot. The meta-poking at his tendency of "bluffing" was overdone and never funny, just like Apollo's "I'm fine!" which was only used twice or so in his own game.
It's like Yamazaki had scribbled notes down to analyse Nick and Apollo's core traits and then he implemented them as plainly as possible -- by making them state their own concept as if they were caricatures of their former selves. If you have been paying attention in AAI, Yamazaki does this a LOT! probably onebof my biggest dislikes about his style.
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Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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linkenski wrote:
This part stuck with me as well, but as with other stuff I feel like it comes down to the fact that DD plays it too safe probably because it's the first mainline game by Yamazaki and he didn't want to step too far outside of the character-boxes set up by Takumi... but with that said he should've been able to do something more interesting with Edgey since he wrote AAI2 in which he did an admirable job of portraying his character.
As for what I think about Nick, I found he was too immature too, but worst of all was how 'goofy' they made him appear. His constant "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" in 5-5 was nonsense and completely out of character for him, and it degrades him into being a bit of an idiot. The meta-poking at his tendency of "bluffing" was overdone and never funny, just like Apollo's "I'm fine!" which was only used twice or so in his own game.
As for what I think about Nick, I found he was too immature too, but worst of all was how 'goofy' they made him appear. His constant "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" in 5-5 was nonsense and completely out of character for him, and it degrades him into being a bit of an idiot. The meta-poking at his tendency of "bluffing" was overdone and never funny, just like Apollo's "I'm fine!" which was only used twice or so in his own game.
It was the same problem with AAI, so I think it's kind of Yamazaki just trying to test the waters, so to speak. I'm sure GS6 will be like GK2 in which it improves on GS5 in a lot of the problem areas
I agree they overdid the meta-poking at his bluffing, but when I replayed AJ, Apollo really does say, "I'm fine!" just as often. It's only more noticeable in DD because they decided to draw attention to it and gave a backstory to it
Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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Somehow, though I still don't know if they should keep Phoenix around as a main character. I'd love to see Pearls or Maya back, but especially when it comes to Maya I just don't have faith in Yamazaki to write her in-character and it wouldn't be nice if they completely alienated people if they decided to do something to her similar to regular Nick vs Hobo Nick for example... I don't know, I just hope Apollo will be the main playable character because while AAI Edgey was awful and inferior to AAI2 Edgey, I don't even think I want to see Nick get too much attention in AA6 even if it meant he would be better characterized as opposed to his appearance in DD.
I get he's a legend, but to me it just feels much better as a player to be in control of someone who doesn't have the rights to brag, and I felt like the judge, as well as all the prosecutors, were commenting too much on Nick's reputation and Nick licked it up with a pretty cocky attitude, and sometimes -- and I've gotten flack for saying this before -- I felt like Phoenix wasn't really Phoenix in DD, but he's some kind of Superhero in the way he's portrayed whenever he doesn't force his "oh, no I'm a newb again" moments, and it's especially reaffirmed by how he keeps saying stuff like "we will save you!" to all his clients. I get the legal system of AA has death penalties for murder, but the other games used to be lighthearted about it for the most part. Phoenix was always very casual about his clients, and he didn't act as if the legal world was "evil" and he had to "save" people from it. I thought that part of DD really got on my nerves.
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Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Sierra Mikain wrote:
I admit the characters in a minor or supporting role were done decently, but I will always think they did an injustice to Edgeworth in AAI.
I don't think it's an injustice (though the illegal evidence moment was terrible) but when I say I thought he was done well, I'm more referring to AAI2. Even if he was done badly in AAI (which I disagree with), it wasn't so bad that it could be considered character assassination, at the very least
I haven't played AAI-2, so I can't comment on that.
Quote:
Quote:
I dunno, he didn't seem terribly concerned after the video transmission was over. Rather, it didn't seem to be source of great worry for him once the Not!trial kicked off.
It was sarcasm. Phoenix didn't care
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Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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linkenski wrote:
I felt like Phoenix wasn't really Phoenix in DD, but he's some kind of Superhero in the way he's portrayed whenever he doesn't force his "oh, no I'm a newb again" moments, and it's especially reaffirmed by how he keeps saying stuff like "we will save you!" to all his clients.
Honestly, much of the fandom still portray him as some sort of superhero. He's basically living up to the rumors that have been circulating around him, in-universe and out as well.
On second thought, maybe this game was meant to be all from Athena's point of view on the story. We know she idolizes her boss and senior attorney, so if this story was meant to be from the viewpoint of an avid Phoenix Wright fan, they got it down just right...
Oh, wait, it was written by a fan - one who actually works at Capcom.
Welp, there ya go, mystery solved. Let's call it a day.
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Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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I just hoped he'd hang onto some of the 'cool laidback wise master' thing he had going on.
(I had to traipse through Ceres' thread to find that, I miss him
)
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Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
linkenski wrote:
Welp, there ya go, mystery solved. Let's call it a day.
yes, yes, of course, but isn't this thread rather about how Phoenix should have been characterized rather than figuring out why he isn't portrayed like you'd expect him to be after PW-Trilogy and AJAA? Obviously the style is gonna be tweaked a tad when writers switch roles, but Yamazaki could've written Nick better than he did... I mean it's not bad, It's just a little jarring, maybe?
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Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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linkenski wrote:
Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
Welp, there ya go, mystery solved. Let's call it a day.
yes, yes, of course, but isn't this thread rather about how Phoenix should have been characterized rather than figuring out why he isn't portrayed like you'd expect him to be after PW-Trilogy and AJAA? Obviously the style is gonna be tweaked a tad when writers switch roles, but Yamazaki could've written Nick better than he did... I mean it's not bad, It's just a little jarring, maybe?
Not as jarring as that knuckle of his when he points that could cut off people's heads before Blackquill could uncuff himself.
Joking aside, it really does feel like the scenario writers were divided over how they should have characterized him. It's no mystery that DD wanted to look for a compromise between the warring states of Phoenixdom and Apollodom. I can't say that bringing in a third main character would help things, but they didn't want to push toward one way or the other at risk of losing a large portion of the fan community. On the other hand, if pushing the issue aside with a distraction is their best solution, then they probably wouldn't have been able to do much about the fan wars anyway.
Still, if I had a word in the matter, I would have taken the risk and gone all out for one character. I honestly wouldn't care if they ended up taking the full course of Athena. At least it'd make sense that she's getting all the attention (except not really, which could have been great gag material, lemme tell ya). They still could have kept in the Phoenix vs Blackquill bout during the 4th and maybe 5th cases, so it's not completely dropped out. And heck, Apollo works surprisingly well as an aid. He's not overbearing in any sense, and he keeps a good balance between his calm vs Athena's hyperactivity.
They saved Edgeworth's appearance for the last case. Why couldn't they save Phoenix's representation for second to last? At that moment, Apollo wasn't available to take the case for obvious reasons. Either that, or let Athena take the case, but ask Phoenix to join her at the bench anyway. He'd make an even better aid, and one that does a little more smart-talking, reminiscent of his role in 4-1.
But that's just me.
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1/3/19 edit: The project has officially been moved to a new blog at https://gsvsaa.blogspot.com/ Further updates will be pending.
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Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
"I'm so sick of Khura'in!"
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And I cannot stress how much I want Apollo to be the only playable character in AA6... at the very least, let us play as him and Athena (cuz she has to be in it, obviously
) or Nick and Apollo, but just not 3 of them for what was practically only 4 cases 
It was too much for one game IMO, and it takes away some much-needed time to grow attatched to one of them.
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Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
The video game boy; the one who wins
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linkenski wrote:
And I cannot stress how much I want Apollo to be the only playable character in AA6...
I KNOW RIGHT. (Although he was an awesome sidekick)
Anyway, what I came here for was to drop by something I found in the "Favorite Ace Attorney character and why"-thread. I think it has some valid points.
TheBlarghMan wrote:
Anyways, this is one of my biggest concerns about DD at the moment, which would be them suddenly reverting Phoenix back to T&T Phoenix. After all he's been through, it would be incredibly unreasonable to think that just regaining his badge would magically transform Phoenix from what the past seven years made him back into the happy go lucky character he was during the original trilogy. I certainly expect him to be more similar to lawyer Phoenix than he was in AJ, because a huge weight is now off his chest and Kristoph is in jail to stay, but he can't go back to being the near dork he was in the original trilogy. That sudden change of personality would be pretty unrealistic, and it would kind of lessen the impact of some of the traumatic events in AJ.
Now, I'd say he did eventually get to keep some of his AJ-personality, but even so, he did go back to being dorky and... well, naïve isn't excactly the word I'm looking for, but something like that. I don't know if they thought he'd be more relatable or easier to play as like that or something, but I think Gregory's part in GK2 (and, well perhaps the rest of GK as well) shows that it's very much possible to have fun playing as a competent and confident lawyer, not to mention it'd be really fun to see what went on in the head of the ambigous and laid-back Phoenix.
(......Ack! I've run out of snide comments!)
Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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DD and AJ spoilers:
Spoiler:
Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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One other reason he doesn't act the same way in court is because, well, he's always secretly been afraid of the judge. ...Well, okay, so maybe I'm the only who thinks so.
Also, Edgeworth would always find some way to figuratively give him a kick in the balls. He can't be a troll to someone who's trolled him for years. Note how he usually fails to up-one on Maya as well.
Thirdly, Blackquill would find some way to literally give him a kick in the balls during a recess. There are some things you can't win, and that's that.
Still, I can't agree with how ham-fisted his lines were close to the finale of the last case. It simply devolved into a poor theater drama act.
Alternatively, everyone was trolling the Phantom by then, since he trolled everyone so hard before then.
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1/3/19 edit: The project has officially been moved to a new blog at https://gsvsaa.blogspot.com/ Further updates will be pending.
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My misc translation and work promos here at http://rubiaryutheroyal.tumblr.com
Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
"I'm so sick of Khura'in!"
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I think the fact that Shu Takumi had since confirmed that he only had Phoenix in AJAA because he was told to bring him in from Capcom's higher-ups make it all the more clear that AJAA Nick is barely even Phoenix, because changing him completely would essentially make him feel like an entirely new character, and that was Takumi's entire idea with AJ:AA. To depend on an all-new cast.
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Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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linkenski wrote:
I wish I had the right word for it, but I always felt like the way Phoenix was acting in AJ:AA was deliberately campy and overdone. I know we skip ahead 7 years between T&T to AJAA but the change of Phoenix felt unrealistic and I think that portrayal was intentional. I think DD's retcon of that was acceptable, especially because in the way I see it, you weren't really meant to take Phoenix' bum image seriously in AJAA. (though honestly, he still acts like his AJAA self in 5-2 as a means to "throwing a bone" to fans)
I think the fact that Shu Takumi had since confirmed that he only had Phoenix in AJAA because he was told to bring him in from Capcom's higher-ups make it all the more clear that AJAA Nick is barely even Phoenix, because changing him completely would essentially make him feel like an entirely new character, and that was Takumi's entire idea with AJ:AA. To depend on an all-new cast.
I think the fact that Shu Takumi had since confirmed that he only had Phoenix in AJAA because he was told to bring him in from Capcom's higher-ups make it all the more clear that AJAA Nick is barely even Phoenix, because changing him completely would essentially make him feel like an entirely new character, and that was Takumi's entire idea with AJ:AA. To depend on an all-new cast.
Even if one agrees/disagrees with retconning AJAA Phoenix, I feel like DD and later GS games just can't completely do that without retconning EVERYTHING in AJAA. It feels wrong to me to retcon eight years of character development entirely, while still keeping the events of AJAA and, of course, those seven years of disbarrment in the canon. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth, to be honest, even if Phoenix was only in AJ because he was forced in there. That game exists, plain and simple, and it's obvious they aren't going to retcon it. So why retcon Phoenix's character?
It's fine that they want him to still be the dorky, lovable lawyer he was in T&T. I understand that completely. But I feel like, in the court segments, he went completely back to that character, retaining none of the changes that had occurred to him. In some aspects, I feel like Phoenix in DD was MORE dorky and what-not than he was in T&T.
Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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drvonkitty wrote:
linkenski wrote:
I wish I had the right word for it, but I always felt like the way Phoenix was acting in AJ:AA was deliberately campy and overdone. I know we skip ahead 7 years between T&T to AJAA but the change of Phoenix felt unrealistic and I think that portrayal was intentional. I think DD's retcon of that was acceptable, especially because in the way I see it, you weren't really meant to take Phoenix' bum image seriously in AJAA. (though honestly, he still acts like his AJAA self in 5-2 as a means to "throwing a bone" to fans)
I think the fact that Shu Takumi had since confirmed that he only had Phoenix in AJAA because he was told to bring him in from Capcom's higher-ups make it all the more clear that AJAA Nick is barely even Phoenix, because changing him completely would essentially make him feel like an entirely new character, and that was Takumi's entire idea with AJ:AA. To depend on an all-new cast.
I think the fact that Shu Takumi had since confirmed that he only had Phoenix in AJAA because he was told to bring him in from Capcom's higher-ups make it all the more clear that AJAA Nick is barely even Phoenix, because changing him completely would essentially make him feel like an entirely new character, and that was Takumi's entire idea with AJ:AA. To depend on an all-new cast.
Even if one agrees/disagrees with retconning AJAA Phoenix, I feel like DD and later GS games just can't completely do that without retconning EVERYTHING in AJAA. It feels wrong to me to retcon eight years of character development entirely, while still keeping the events of AJAA and, of course, those seven years of disbarrment in the canon. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth, to be honest, even if Phoenix was only in AJ because he was forced in there. That game exists, plain and simple, and it's obvious they aren't going to retcon it. So why retcon Phoenix's character?
It's fine that they want him to still be the dorky, lovable lawyer he was in T&T. I understand that completely. But I feel like, in the court segments, he went completely back to that character, retaining none of the changes that had occurred to him. In some aspects, I feel like Phoenix in DD was MORE dorky and what-not than he was in T&T.
Hold the phone there, who's to say they aren't retconning aspects of AJ?
Apollo himself exists as does Trucy but for all we hear of it, nothing is said about the other events of the game. Trucy's magic panties are there (sadly EVERYWHERE) but other than that there's nothing really mentioned other than Phoenix's disbarment from the past. Even then they don't touch a single detail of his disbarment, I barely think Kristoph is mentioned or maybe even forged evidence.
A new fan could come in and just say "Oh Phoenix was disbarred but got his badge back to deal with the Phantom thanks to Edgeworth. He's got new assistants now (Apollo Trucy Athena)" and not know any better. Hell the might even say "Man Phoenix got disbarred? I bet GS6 will make a story about that!"
Almost no plotlines are picked up from the past, they are taking the bare minimum. I think they have practically retconned his character into goofy young!Nick from the wiser figure he was.
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Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
"I'm so sick of Khura'in!"
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As for DD's lack of ties to past games I have two counterarguments:
1) The new crew did not want to misinterpret or add too much to the GS1-3 canon Takumi wrote, not to mention the game is a return from hiatus and thus they didn't want to pander too much with games that are a generation behind, leaving newcomers confused.
2) People did not like AJAA so much. The GS team decided not to dabble too much in a previous plot hated for its inconsistency and plotholes, but they wanted to take Apollo and Trucy into the new game to respect AJAA as canon material and give the characters a second chance to shine.
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Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
Gettin' Old!
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linkenski wrote:
He's certainly more dorky than in T&T, but blame that on Takumi's abscence, and not the new crew deliberately making him like so. They tried recapturing his T&T essence, that is true, and I guess I agree that it would've been better to see his AJAA traits during courtroom segments. With that said though, I still think his persona in AJAA was meant to be an act or a farce, but I get not everyone sees it in that way.
As for DD's lack of ties to past games I have two counterarguments:
1) The new crew did not want to misinterpret or add too much to the GS1-3 canon Takumi wrote, not to mention the game is a return from hiatus and thus they didn't want to pander too much with games that are a generation behind, leaving newcomers confused.
2) People did not like AJAA so much. The GS team decided not to dabble too much in a previous plot hated for its inconsistency and plotholes, but they wanted to take Apollo and Trucy into the new game to respect AJAA as canon material and give the characters a second chance to shine.
As for DD's lack of ties to past games I have two counterarguments:
1) The new crew did not want to misinterpret or add too much to the GS1-3 canon Takumi wrote, not to mention the game is a return from hiatus and thus they didn't want to pander too much with games that are a generation behind, leaving newcomers confused.
2) People did not like AJAA so much. The GS team decided not to dabble too much in a previous plot hated for its inconsistency and plotholes, but they wanted to take Apollo and Trucy into the new game to respect AJAA as canon material and give the characters a second chance to shine.
Some people didn't like AJ AA much but it was pretty well contested I think. Also just because you make something that isn't received well doesn't mean you can just glaze over it like a fine belgian bun. They should address their faults and wrap up the problems they had instead of just holding their hands up and saying "Well I can't fix this, look it's ATHENA!"
Also I wouldn't really call AA:DD as a 'second chance' for Trucy.
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Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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Pierre wrote:
doesn't mean you can just glaze over it like a fine belgian bun.
Pierre I have never heard this phrase before but you should know I'm totally stealing it now
"Descole? You don't mean Mr. I-Like-to-Wreck-Things-with-Mechanical-Monsters-and-Dress-Up-as-Posh-Ladies Descole?" -Emmy Altava
...NAILED IT
...NAILED IT
Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
"I'm so sick of Khura'in!"
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Pierre wrote:
linkenski wrote:
He's certainly more dorky than in T&T, but blame that on Takumi's abscence, and not the new crew deliberately making him like so. They tried recapturing his T&T essence, that is true, and I guess I agree that it would've been better to see his AJAA traits during courtroom segments. With that said though, I still think his persona in AJAA was meant to be an act or a farce, but I get not everyone sees it in that way.
As for DD's lack of ties to past games I have two counterarguments:
1) The new crew did not want to misinterpret or add too much to the GS1-3 canon Takumi wrote, not to mention the game is a return from hiatus and thus they didn't want to pander too much with games that are a generation behind, leaving newcomers confused.
2) People did not like AJAA so much. The GS team decided not to dabble too much in a previous plot hated for its inconsistency and plotholes, but they wanted to take Apollo and Trucy into the new game to respect AJAA as canon material and give the characters a second chance to shine.
As for DD's lack of ties to past games I have two counterarguments:
1) The new crew did not want to misinterpret or add too much to the GS1-3 canon Takumi wrote, not to mention the game is a return from hiatus and thus they didn't want to pander too much with games that are a generation behind, leaving newcomers confused.
2) People did not like AJAA so much. The GS team decided not to dabble too much in a previous plot hated for its inconsistency and plotholes, but they wanted to take Apollo and Trucy into the new game to respect AJAA as canon material and give the characters a second chance to shine.
Some people didn't like AJ AA much but it was pretty well contested I think. Also just because you make something that isn't received well doesn't mean you can just glaze over it like a fine belgian bun. They should address their faults and wrap up the problems they had instead of just holding their hands up and saying "Well I can't fix this, look it's ATHENA!"
Also I wouldn't really call AA:DD as a 'second chance' for Trucy.
Neither do I look at the final product we got in that way, but perhaps the writers throught her role was well implemented?
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Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
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Anyway, about Trucy. The thing is, critics tend to be the most vocal group. After Apollo Justice, most fans were generally happy with Trucy (yes, a few critics about her being a Maya clone, but people say that with every assistant). People were shouting, "Apollo is a boring character!" So, they made him a less boring character in Dual Destinies (or at least made him more relevant). With Trucy, they thought, "Eh. People haven't been yelling that they want more Trucy. I guess it's ok to sideline her for this new girl. Let's just make this new girl the assistant in every case because we need the players to care about her by case 5 and we want to show off the Mood Matrix. Let's also make her a teenager because every assistant is a teenager." Obviously I'm oversimplifying things, but I think that could be the case. They didn't give Trucy a huge role because they thought she didn't need one
I think GS6 will (hopefully) resolve some of the bigger complaints about GS5 and you'll be able to investigate everything in an area, the game will be harder, and some lingering plot points will be resolved. I'm not too sure if Athena will get a smaller role considering she's a mascot for GS now (there were criticisms about Kay in GK, but she only appeared more often in GK2. I was happy with it, but it is worth pointing out). I'm also not confident the criticisms about Phoenix will be resolved
But if I'm being perfectly honest, Phoenix didn't bother me much at all in DD. I still felt like I was playing as a legendary attorney and he definitely isn't "a dork again" (besides the kiss in the DLC). I agree with Sierra that his attitude during the trial in 5-5 was off, but keep in mind that most of the time when he was thinking something like, "Edgeworth, how could you!", he was thinking it, but keeping a stern face throughout all of it, so the courtroom isn't seeing him crack under the pressure. The only times in the game he does the, "Head down in despair" animation is before the revisualization, during a non-canon bad ending, and a joke in the DLC case, compared to the multiple times in JFA and T&T. Plus, he didn't rely on Mia once in this game. He's definitely more experienced than ever in this game. It's most apparent in the first case and least apparent in the final, but that's due to the amount of stress he's in because the life of his daughter, coworker, and Simon are on the line
Re: Phoenix's character (SPOILERS)
"I'm so sick of Khura'in!"
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I think the best and most unique moments for him in DD are in the two latter cases in the story where he has his alone-time. I can't remember specific dialogues right now, but he has some monologues when Apollo and Athena are not in the office that portrays him perfectly as that responsible mentor that he's become. That moment really clicked with me in that it was an original role for him we hadn't seen before really.
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