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The reason Trucy's kidnapping left a weak impact on Phoenix and on the players was because there was no dilemna - once the trial started, Phoenix had nothing else to do than just roll with it.

Had Phoenix worried about Trucy, it would be close to "The killer escaped via launch pad's corridor and... I'm worried about my daughter, btw". That's no good way to do it and storytelling-wise, there was no good way for it during the trial - or after it, since we were meant to get that Blackquill sibling moment.

They could introduce some dilemna in order to make Trucy seem more involved if Aura forced Phoenix to intentionally lose, leading to an ultimatum even more cruel that the one with Maya, since this time, both women were actually close to Phoenix.

But knowing some people it would be no dilemna at all - making one option of a cruel ultimatum more satisfying to some than a happy ending... I'm glad it didn't end up like this.

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Yeah sure but guess what, people worry about things that are out of their control. Even if there was no dilemma I'd totally WANT him to mention Trucy, hell give him a breakdown if it comes to it. Make him hateful of Athena, make him blame her however incorrect he is in his assumption, he can apologise later when Trucy's safe just SHOW THAT YOU ACTUALLY CARE ABOUT YOUR DAUGHTER AS YOU DID BEFORE.

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What are you talking about, Pierre. HoboNick made a terrible father. Now all his daughter thinks about is flaunting her panties.

Yamazaki certainly did expand on their relationship outside the main game, via Turnabout Deduction that never moved outside Japan. I've translated it in one other thread somewhere if anyone's interested in what happens in it.

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Is that the Joypolis attraction thing? :o Link pls

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Hah, I wish. I was talking about Turnabout Quiz, which is actually "Quiz Turnabout Deduction" if you follow the logo. Nowhere in it does it suggest it's not canon, so therefore it shall be. But, if I can find a link to someone's blog on the Joypolis attractions, I wouldn't mind sharing it here. That's an important piece of GS history we're missing out on!

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Oh, if you were talking about that, I thought you would have called it "Turnabout Quiz" xP

I was wondering how you got the script of the Joypolis attraction...

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I found it! http://www.forums.court-records.net/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=27545

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I suppose I can say a piece here. My main issue with the characterization of Phoenix here is that it seems to only have a marginal understanding of his saga, and all but outright ignores his story in AJ. (Though DD as a whole seems to sweep AJ under the rug entirely)

And generally, I think the ultimate problem here is that Phoenix's story is basically over. I mean that was one of the major parts of AJ: wrapping up his story so there could be a new Ace Attorney. Here it feels like he's been thrown into the spotlight yet again, ignoring basically everything that happened in AJ. For the record, I will admit I liked a couple things about it. I like that he's treated like a competent lawyer. I like that his proteges respect him and that he cares for them too (I'm a pretty big fan of Dad!Wright stuff because I feel like it's a perfect place for his character to go) and I like some of the moments they give him, like when he and Apollo get to stand at the defense bench together. The big issue I take is that Phoenix is back... But his story's done. He's been brought back for gratuitous reasons and his pressense doesn't give respect the full backstory he's been through. It feels like an imitation; not a terrible one, but it's enough to kinda feel cheated, and not meaningful enough to justify.

I get that he's meaningful in the story and to the themes. Good, but at the same time, why doesn't he just spend the game as a full-time mentor? That would be much more interesting, and if he DOES jump back in action, make it a quick thing that SHOWS how much he's grown and WHY he's now the Boss.

It's hard for me to articulate my full feelings across on this, and I don't think I really did it well-enough here, but I think it was a mistake to give Phoenix such a big part, especially when I actually enjoyed the game most when we were taking charge of Apollo or Athena. When I see Phoenix standing in DD, I don't feel like he needs to be there. I feel like he's there because the producers of the game decided that he should be there, and then wrote things around that. Hopefully they've gotten this out of their system, and the next game can let Phoenix finally end his story, so a new one can begin.

That's right. Apollo and Athena are the future.

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I know I'm in the minority on this but I'll say my piece anyway (for clarification, after AJ I pretty much agreed with everyone that Phoenix should take a backseat):

Playing Dual Destinies just made me realize how much I miss Phoenix, especially after three games of not Phoenix (four if you have a problem with T&T's characterization). I mean, I like Apollo and Athena (especially Apollo) but I really don't feel like they can carry a game on their own--after DD it would just seem like a step backwards

Yes, you can argue that Phoenix's development is over but people said the same about Edgeworth after JFA, and then we got GK2 (and it was still fun playing as him in 3-5 and GK1). I feel like throwing in a dark backstory for Apollo or Trucy at this point would feel shoehorned in

Who said anything about dark backstories? They had happy childhoods, so there (well, okay, so Trucy had to say bye to her dad). In a way, they're like Klavier who had a dark present because their most unfortunate tragedies happened in the present / recent past.

Anyway, Phoenix just had to be in here not just for fanservice, but to play an important role. He's not just their boss; he's not just their mentor. He's their prophet, and I'm being serious about it. Without an important figure in the series to lead the series into a new direction, both AJ and DD would feel shoehorned in. They'd work great as independent spinoff games, but they wouldn't be very well attached to the mainstream games because Phoenix took a backseat in AJ (and became so un-Phoenix-like).

It works for the GK games because they're spinoffs - side stories to add onto the mainstream, but not necessary to know to keep the story going. In these kinds of games, it doesn't matter too much how off the canon is, or if it's canon at all. They just need to be good games that don't tarnish the franchise's name, and they delivered.

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I'd argue Phoenix didn't take a backseat at all in AJ; rather, he was basically the driving force of the entire game. Sure we didn't get to actually play as him... Except we did, actually, for a little bit. But throughout the game it's Phoenix pulling all the strings, while Apollo is doing most of the legwork. Phoenix becoming "un-Phoenix-like" is because, well, he's grown out of the "Phoenix" he used to be. And I was fine with that; big character changes are a huge risk in most established franchises, because you risk alienating parts of your fanbase. I'm sure a lot of people hated Hobohodou when they saw him; hell, even I did. But I'm of the opinion that the change was a positive one that reflects how far Phoenix has come; he's not the semi-bumbling defense attorney he once was; he's come to understand more about the world and put his head to work. And now that he's no longer needed as the player surrogate, he can have a bit more personality to him.

I don't argue Phoenix shouldn't have been in DD. But his words to Apollo that it was "[his] story from here on out" rang quite hollow when I first saw him back. And seeing as they dropped any traces of his other self and reverted back to the "classic" Phoenix felt really, really disappointing. It was probably a popular move, sure, but I'd argue that a lot was lost there, and it feels like a cop-out to go with what would be better-recieved over what was true to the story.

Either way, I do have higher hopes for GS6, and maybe there Apollo will finally get his own story going.

...I dunno about this

I mean, AJ was very much about Nick. But it tied up the loose ends about his character (that it created) while also leaving unanswered questions about Polly, so to me it felt like a "passing of the torch" from Nick to Polly. Obviously DD went in a totally different direction, but I really don't see why GS5 couldn't have been "AJ2" with Polly as the new main driving force of the series, rather than Nick.

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bp i just said that why

cuz my name is yellow

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It's 'cause BP and I are eternal rivals... or something.

When I said he was "backseat" in AJ, I meant he actually was working in the background. But that's not important here. What is, is that the torch passing in AJ was not done very clearly. Sure, Nick got into a scandal, and thanks to lots of people, he got out of it. That's the happy ending, and I will not complain about it. The thing is, it never gave Polly a direction in the first place. It's why the name "Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney" doesn't fit as well as "Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney - feat. Apollo Justice". There wasn't that much from that game to go on with him, and as a result, the AAI team had little choice but to throw Nick back in as foundation support... and then screw it, make him the main because everyone loves and hates him.

The Jurist System, meanwhile, was another thing altogether. Whether or not that would have worked in this series was, is, and shall be left to its own. Let's see... what other open ends left from AJ that are not about Apollo's missing background?

tl;dr Apollo still needs training wheels. Then they gave him a junior who tries to take it without those wheels and ended up stumbling. Enter Daddy Phoenix.

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Whenever the main person behind a work changes, the new person is always going to get some of the characters wrong. No exceptions. Just look at the way the characters are portrayed in Mega Man X7, which was made by a different team than the first 6 games. When a new person takes control over any series, they are always going to mess up the character's personalities. It's unavoidable, really.

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The West Wing, The Next Generation, Ace Attorney Investigations

Yes, AJ was a lot about Nick, but the fact that Polly's past was basically a blank slate meant that there was plenty to go on with him. (Unless by "him" you meant Nick, in which case... I don't see why that'd matter at all.)

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Yes, there's "plenty" about Apollo that they could take into GS6 and wrap it up like how the original trilogy did. Who said we had to answer all those questions about him in the second game of a new trilogy? *looks at GS2*

Still, if that's the case, then I can only see GS6 becoming a second "GS3", with its deeply metaphorical storytelling, stupidly ironic encounters, and random-as-heck filler cases that still somehow tie into the main theme... wait, main theme? What main theme? You mean the theme that was supposed to be in this game but went up in a poof of friendship? Or is it a completely different main theme that no one had accounted for yet?

I really do await what they come up with. I'm most curious about whether they'll lean on GS5 more than 4, or if they'll actually return to taking inspiration from GS3 (and by extension, GS4) and work from there.

And in the meantime, there's also that new girl who's still going to be around. She's going to be another Kay-in-GK2, isn't she? Well, at least Trucy has another playmate who isn't only around for a few days before having to return to her village on the outskirts of town.

And we'll all end up back in this thread or a similar one for GS6, complaining about how little of Nick there was. Yaaay.

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Funny you mention this, because I theorized before that Athena is going to have almost an identical role in one case that Kay had in GK2-4. Now I'm thinking Nick will take that spot

The difference is that GS5 added not one, but two new main characters, meaning there's that much less room for Polly to have the limelight in GS6.

...Also, you're misconstruing the argument It's not that they needed to do it in GS5, it's just that they had enough material to make GS5 all about Polly if they had wanted.


While she didn't have any ties at the start, they drew her into the plot, so you at least gotta give them credit for not making her tacked on the entire game. (Plus, she's great~ And it lead to good development of her relationship with Edgey.)

dw thena will be tied to the plot. thalassa's daughter is actually athena, so now she gets the gramarye magic and that plotline. and both thalassa and metis are athena's biological mother because athena is just that special and awesome


Nah. The problem with GS6 isn't how little of Nick there is, it's how much of Athena there is.

(Save this post, everybody. When GS6 comes out, I want it to be known that I WAS THE FIRST ONE TO COMPLAIN ABOUT ATHENA IN IT)

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Eh? Again?


Yeah, I am; I'll admit it. It's just that this potential for another game about Polly before GS5 came out is still around, no matter how many new main characters there are. Blackquill won't have much of a role if there's a new prosecutor - and there will always be a new prosecutor (and this time he'll wear a mask too) - and Athena doesn't have much else to do beside being an assistant at times. It's cumbersome bringing your boss around as a legal aid, and Trucy isn't always available (assuming TQ is actually canon), so there's still Athena.

That should be a line of Trucy's in the next game. "There's still Athena!"


bp did you just put thalassa and metis together aura's gonna be so mad
unless they're actually the same person omg
Oh definitely. I actually liked her more in GK2 than in GK1, but I figured she should be the only one who gets to run around on crime scenes with or without the prosecutor's permission. It's become one of her unique traits.


I quoted it. Does that count?

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I feel like I'm the only one around here who understands why Athena was brought to the agency and why it was necessary...

Much unlike Kay who showed up because the game needed a teenage girl assistant, but whatever.

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You wanna start this argument again?

I'd be quite happy for the next game to be a true Apollo Justice 2. I was satisfied with AJ and was hoping the new game would focus on him. Then instead trailers revealed it focused on Nick, I was disappointed but I could accept that knowing Apollo was still around.

Then in the end the final result actually focused on Athena and I was a bit furious then.

So yeah I think Nick's arc is done (as I did before GS5 came out) but please...Apollo Justice 2 and not Athena Cykes 1 for GS6.

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Huh, why not both?

I was under impression that the game is heading in the "Athena Cykes and Apollo Justice" direction even in Dual Destinies.

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Last edited by Nearavex on Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Could you explain? I can't really understand why beyond "they wanted a new main character".


I'm fine with that, but with the way they handled DD, I'm not very confident that this team is going to be closing many, if any, of the threads left by AJ. But hey, could get better, I guess. I'm also not too sure where Athena's character would be heading, but this isn't the thread for that.

Well I was under the impression that the current team can't handle a balance correctly, and favours Athena over Apollo.

In fact to prove the point: You yourself just said you were under the impression that Apollo and Athena were the focus in Dual Destinies.

The name on the box was Phoenix Wright.

They couldn't balance the characters well, I'd not even say Apollo got enough focus in that considering how many plot threads of his are left lying.

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This sums up the entirety of my problems with Phoenix's character in DD right here, and what I clumsily tried to get across with my posts here. The problem is not that he's there or a major force in the game; it's that he's put at the forefront of the game, where he didn't need to be, purely for the makers to say "LOOK HE'S BACK PLAY OUR GAME".

Yeah it did come across as rather deceptive marketing sadly.

Guess they didn't feel Apollo or Athena could carry the marketing on their own, that or they felt they had to follow through on Phoenix's "Maybe I'll retake the bar exam" tease at the end of AJ.

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no, thalassa and metis aren't a couple
and they aren't the same person
athena just gets to be both of their daughters just cuz, k????


I guess, but it feels a lot less likely. I can't help but feel that if the next game is AJ2, there would be even more people complaining about the lack of Nick (and/or Athena) than there were in AJ


Pierre pls, they already made Athena Cykes 1

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I lack the ability to write a full-fledged, convincing essay about it, but... I guess I'll list a few points.

First of all, we have Phoenix returning to law - now, the writing team gave him a new role - role of the boss to the Agency. I really, really like that - when fans tried with their fangames and fanfics, nothing they made brought much to his character - it was literally Phoenix just returning... and still acting like a hobo or reverting completely to his rookie self.

Now, some people say he reverted in DD, but I disagree - aside from a few moments in 5-5, he is fully competent and grown as a character - and now trying to handle his responsibilties as a mentor our two rookie main characters look up to. While his story arc ended, I'm really glad they still managed to progress his character in this way - in a way in which he feels like himself for once.

Speaking of being boss of the office... What sounds more interesting to you - mentoring two young promising lawyers or mentoring Apollo?

That's exactly it - if Apollo just were there by himself, he would get completely overshadowed... or, if the story focused on Apollo, Phoenix's return would feel just trite.

Athena fixed that - she added a balance, majorly contributed to Agency's character dynamic. To me, she and Apollo me have a close third character interaction in the series - while Phoenix and Maya and Phoenix and Edgeworth come as first and second.

I'm really rambling now, huh? Still, I can't just imagine GS5 without Athena being a good game - to me, she and this game as a whole is a keystone - keeping both sides of the fandom "arch" intact, so they don't fall down and end up in complete chaos.

(Whoever knows what I'm referencing right now - I love you. Also, Keystones. Don't remove them =D)

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I disagree. I kinda hoped he'd still have the Hobo attitude, or at least some of it. That more cunning and laidback attitude. He never really fully seemed to have much control like he did but that's just my personal tastes, no doubt there's some folks that are glad he reverted, but here's where I feel you are REALLY wrong.




a) Apollo's overshadowing in his own game was a result of Phoenix being forced into his game and therefore events had to revolve around him being the big name in the game. Even in DD he is still completely overshadowed as he has to make room for Athena and Blackquill as the new important duo. I'll point out that Apollo is the only attorney in this game who doesn't 'truly' face off against his rival in court.

b) Phoenix's return DID feel trite, I already explained his arc felt done, ShadowSleuth says he felt he didn't need to be there at all. They brought him in and then didn't make any good use of him at all, it was all about other characters than him.

c) "Athena fixed that" except no, Athena is the cause of the problem. Since she was chosen to be the core of the plot and the cases stuff revolves around her more than anyone else resulting in Apollo being overshadowed. Also while I doubt they could have done something new with Phoenix in a meaningful way, they instead made the plot arc about other people and so Phoenix's 'grand return' feels weak.


You say a 2-lawyer dynamic with Phoenix and Apollo would go two ways: Apollo getting overshadowed, or Phoenix's big return feeling pointless depending on who the story focused on. Yet you defend the addition of a third person who both overshadows Apollo and makes Phoenix feel pointless.

Adding more characters to the pot when you are afraid of current ones being overlooked doesn't solve the problem.

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Athena was the core of the plot? Granted, we do experience most of it from her point of view, but I still felt like it was more about her and Apollo, not just her.

You might present 5-5 to counter it, but there's the thing - she's the new main character - it's natural her backstory would be brought up, just like Apollo's was in GS4 and Phoenix's and Edgeworth's in GS1.

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Then Athena is revealed to actually be the goddess Athena, followed by her dying for your sins.

We never got a box, remember?
Even still, I recall the marketing introducing Wright only for a few seconds before cutting off to show this girl in yellow we were supposed to find amazing.

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I don't see how him being the "Boss" was a new role? He's been the boss since AJ. Though I have to admit it was nice to see him in sort of a "fatherly" position here. (Like I said before I like the idea Dad!Wright and having a sort of 'family') Despite that, I don't see his "acting like a hobo" to have ever been a bad thing. I thought it brought a LOT more depth and intrigue to the character, as he's not the same as he was before. Let's face it, a lot of pre-AJ Phoenix didn't allow him to have much of an interesting personality, because 90% of the time we were playing as him. That's not to say he was devoid of character, but he was certainly no Edgeworth. Hobo!Nick allowed us to take a look at the "next step" for his character, and what a guy like him would end up doing after the system quite literally kicked him out. I get the feeling that Phoenix is kinda done with law, but wants to keep helping people in his own way. Hell, the entire point of the series was to show that the legal system is screwed up.



I'm pretty certain one of the FIRST things he does in 5-1 is to be "gulp! Wow even though I've done this for literally years I'm still shaking like a rookie"... I don't buy that. Your mileage may vary but I don't. Those kinds of lines were hugely immersion breaking for me. And while he was competent as a lawyer throughout, it's hard to argue he was more competent than he was in AJ where he literally twisted the law and manipulated things to defeat the bad guy. Twice. And again, the "feeling like himself" thing... I don't fully get that either. Sure it's nice to have the Phoenix we're all familiar with, but his time is done. We can't expect characters, much like people, to be the same forever.



AJ2 shouldn't be about "mentoring Apollo", much like GS was never about "mentoring Phoenix". Phoenix only had a mentor for one case, and the rest was him learning on the go. Apollo having Phoenix as a mentor would be cool, but the majority of the game should fall to Apollo having to work on his own. Plus there's plenty of ways they could keep Phoenix as a mentor but keep the focus on Apollo's growth. Cut Apollo off from Phoenix, or REALLY explore the idea of "Apollo leaves the Agency because he's seeking a different 'truth'." That was a really intriguing aspect of DD that just kinda boiled down to "I had doubt about Athena, but now I don't so I'm cool". A much more interesting take could be about Apollo and Phoenix actually seeking different "truths". Phoenix might be seeking the "truth" that helps his clients, while Apollo wants the "truth" that brings justice.

As for the second idea, it sounds interesting... On paper. However with how badly Athena was handled in DD, it comes across instead as "Promising Lawyer going to have his own story, but now with ANOTHER promising lawyer that's in the game too now". If the idea from the start was "Phoenix picks up two new lawyers to be his proteges" then yeah, cool. But unfortunately, the way Athena is tacked on makes the idea feel like a failure to launch; we were TOLD we'd get a cool, new generation of AA; now we're going to get it with a new lawyer that's in the game now... Because.



I've already mentioned the first part, and Phoenix's return was never needed to begin with.



I can see where you're coming from here. Athena as a fresh perspective does give Apollo more relevance and pull in the narrative, like when Phoenix lets Apollo pull "what little rank he has" on Athena in one part. More scenes like that would have been cool, and it does help Apollo as a character to have someone he can act as a peer/senior to. I think that if they'd handled Athena PROPERLY that this could be a really good thing.

However, that comes at a cost. And that cost was named Trucy Wright. I don't think I have to go into much detail here, but let's just say for now that Apollo was not the only one shafted by DD's treatment of AA.



I'm not saying GS6 shouldn't have Athena. I mean now that they've set her up, if they were to kick her out again, it'd just be stupid. However, she never felt necessary from a meta-standpoint, and she, like Phoenix felt more like a "LOOK AT THIS CHARACTER BUY THE GAME" thing that reeks of a lack of confidence in the story. From an outside perspective, we didn't NEED a new main character and we didn't NEED Phoenix to return. They were extraneous things that feel like they were added for all the wrong reasons. Now, did I enjoy them? Yeah, sort of. Like I said before, I still LIKE some of the things they did with Phoenix and I still LIKED Athena to a degree. But the core problems are still there and that's why I can't really think of either of them as "good" or "necessary" things to the franchise.

EDIT: Sidenote. By 5-5, Athena's backstory has been explored fully and finished off. That didn't happen for Apollo, and unless they go with the Athenabot theory as canon, there's not much else to do with her now.

Last edited by Shadowsleuth on Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I think you confused the demo with the actual game.

Still, I do agree, that these kind of lines were annoying in 5-5. I also don't say there aren't flaws with execution - I'm just answering your question regarding why I feel Athena was needed.

Also, our opinions on Phoenix being the way he is and returning are completely different, so we won't come to an agreement on that one...

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Last edited by Nearavex on Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

granted but that's sort of the least of the issues present.

That's why I edited my post ^^;

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