Is Edgeworth an atheist?

TheWmegaPSI · Post by **TheWmegaPSI** » Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:00 pm

I don't personaly think there are creationists in the world of Ace Attorney since in 2-3 the only one who believed in heaven was Regina ,while even Moe didn't take her belief seriously

Sligneris · Post by **Sligneris** » Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:59 am

Even disregarding 3-5... There is something else about him.

"Without evidence, you have nothing. You are nothing." ...was it?

These are not words of someone who would believe in any religion, really.

TopHatProfessor1014 · Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:00 pm

Sligneris wrote:Even disregarding 3-5... There is something else about him.

"Without evidence, you have nothing. You are nothing." ...was it?

These are not words of someone who would believe in any religion, really.

Well said, good sir. Well said.

Though I should point out that there's no evidence to make a firm judgement on a fictional character's beliefs either.

Sligneris · Post by **Sligneris** » Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:24 pm

Now, more about the religion in AA... 5-2 goes far into religious beliefs in the game's producer's country. And you see how everyone treats these beliefs, whether it's Apollo, Judge or Fulbright.

We can safely assume pretty much everyone is atheist, now. <_<

SANC · Post by **SANC** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:44 pm

TopHatProfessor1014 wrote:
Sligneris wrote:Even disregarding 3-5... There is something else about him.

"Without evidence, you have nothing. You are nothing." ...was it?

These are not words of someone who would believe in any religion, really.
Well said, good sir. Well said.

Though I should point out that there's no evidence to make a firm judgement on a fictional character's beliefs either.

Wrong. I say this. In my experience nothing creates something unless it would be superior to it at the point of creation and explosions don't come from nowhere and certainly don't create stuff so the Big Bang is out. Yet more arrogance from the internet. In any case I'd say Edgeworth is in denial, because of the DL-6 he won't allow himself to believe in the supernatural even when it happened right in front of him in the last case of T and T.

Sligneris · Post by **Sligneris** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:08 pm

The thread title is "Is Edgeworth an atheist?", not "Are you an atheist?"... <_<

Your reasoning is more of the answer to the latter.

Coyote · Post by **Coyote** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:29 pm

Sligneris wrote:Now, more about the religion in AA... 5-2 goes far into religious beliefs in the game's producer's country. And you see how everyone treats these beliefs, whether it's Apollo, Judge or Fulbright.

We can safely assume pretty much everyone is atheist, now. <_<

If you're defining atheism as absence of [Christianity/Shinto/other organized religion], then maybe.

If you're defining atheism as absence of belief in all paranormal phenomena and all forms of spiritualism - no.

Spirit mediums exist in Ace Attorney. There is tangible proof of the existence of, if not some form of an afterlife, then at least of souls. Apollo and Fulbright don't believe in demons, but they don't have that prior knowledge. The Judge isn't the sharpest tool in the shed.

Whatever the case may be, 'atheism' doesn't mean the same thing in the context of AA's world as it does in the real one. It can't. If the foundation of atheism is the lack of proof of supernatural interference, then the existence of something veritably paranormal shakes that foundation.

I have no idea what 90% of SANC's post is getting at, but he's not wrong about Edgeworth being in denial.

Sligneris · Post by **Sligneris** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:47 pm

Coyote wrote:If you're defining atheism as absence of [Christianity/Shinto/other organized religion], then maybe.

If you're defining atheism as absence of belief in all paranormal phenomena and all forms of spiritualism - no.

I am defining the first as agnostic atheism, actually. But you o have a point there and that is mostly what I mean.

And I do not speak of the latter, neither in regards to Ace Attorney, nor in regards to real life xD

TheDoctor · Post by **TheDoctor** » Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:20 am

I'm personally in the camp that states a character's religion or lack thereof is up for debate unless confirmed in universe.

Afaik, Edgeworth has never stated that he believes in a higher power, but at the same time, he hasn't stated that he doesn't believe in one either.

Ergo, what we have here is a case of Schrodinger's Religious Cat. Edgeworth is both an Atheist and a Theist at the same time, and will remain so until we have some concrete proof telling us for certain which side he leans towards.

(That said, it is completely possible to be scientifically minded and religious at the same time. As Einstein said, "Science without religion is lame... Religion without science is blind." Just throwing that out there).

Jean Descole · Post by **Jean Descole** » Sat Jan 04, 2014 2:22 pm

EVERYONE'S FAITH/BELIEF SYSTEM IN ACE ATTORNEY IS CANON BI

Better?

Rubia Ryu the Royal · Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:40 am

Adrian in black wrote:EVERYONE'S FAITH/BELIEF SYSTEM IN ACE ATTORNEY IS CANON BI

Better?

Not until everyone admits that they're all part of the religion that worships the Steel Samurai. Then we will have a canon cult following for a kid's show.

Jean Descole · Post by **Jean Descole** » Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:47 am

Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Adrian in black wrote:EVERYONE'S FAITH/BELIEF SYSTEM IN ACE ATTORNEY IS CANON BI

Better?
Not until everyone admits that they're all part of the religion that worships the Steel Samurai. Then we will have a canon cult following for a kid's show.

Now, Edgeworth being a member of that, I could buy.

jayvdale · Post by **jayvdale** » Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:06 am

Ace Attorney 6 will be about religion someday

Sligneris · Post by **Sligneris** » Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:22 am

It won't. It's simply because Japanese majorly view religion the same way we view greek mythology - interesting cultural quirk. ~~and it's better that way~~

Oh, and but we had a religion-related chapter. 5-2 was nothing but that.

~~I need to stop my religion-hating weeb atheist self from leaking out.~~

Rubia Ryu the Royal · Post by **Rubia Ryu the Royal** » Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:43 am

jayvdale wrote:Ace Attorney 6 will be about religion someday

Is this a prayer? No, I don't mean any disrespect; I'm genuinely curious.

Sligneris wrote:Oh, and but we had a religion-related chapter. 5-2 was nothing but that.

What are you talking about?

Sligneris · Post by **Sligneris** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:03 am

...That The Monstrous Turnabout, being about yokai, was religion-related case?

Rubia Ryu the Royal · Post by **Rubia Ryu the Royal** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:26 pm

What the heck do yokai and religion have to do with each other? Belief in evil spirits doesn't make it a part of some religion. In fact, the majority of residents in Japan who believe in that sort of stuff don't also claim to be fully "Shinto" and just practice some part of it. Shinto itself can't be considered a true religion because it's too diverse to be summarized into a particular ancient text or any single form.

In fact, I could argue that 5-2 shows an outdated system of belief that is revealed to be a simple trick filled with good intentions. There's no religion to speak of.

At least they had souvenirs.

Sligneris · Post by **Sligneris** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:16 pm

Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:What the heck do yokai and religion have to do with each other?

I believe it's pretty much the same matter as "what the heck do angels and religion have to do with each other?"...

Really.

Though, that's just my take on the matter.

Coyote · Post by **Coyote** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:17 pm

Sligneris wrote:
Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:What the heck do yokai and religion have to do with each other?
I believe it's pretty much the same matter as "what the heck do angels and religion have to do with each other?"...

Really.

Though, that's just my take on the matter.

No, I think Rubia has a point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think yokai are specific religious figures? They're supernatural creatures rooted in superstition. It's more like asking "what the heck do faeries and religion have to do with each other?"

Both may have religious roots, but they aren't inherently religious in a Western sense. Superstitious and paranormal, but not necessarily religious.

... In either case, it's sort of off topic, isn't it?

Rubia Ryu the Royal · Post by **Rubia Ryu the Royal** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:41 pm

Yep, yokai are more in the realm of faeries; they're mischievous like them too, but can commit some pretty nasty crimes. They're not gods of misfortune that vengeful people pray to for luck, nor followers of any particular purpose. They're just the ones people want to avoid at all costs. Besides, there are already building kits for vengeance. ;)

3-5 may have been Edgeworth's first and last case involving spirituality, and I don't think he wants to take another unless Nick ends up in a river again, and even then that's pushing it.

ElectricOutcast · Post by **ElectricOutcast** » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:30 pm

Too add my two cents in, I think Edgeworth's belief in anything like God or Exorcism may have gotten severely shaken when he lost his father. I've known some people who at one time or another had a faith in God, but most of the time murder can really shake you to the point where you just don't believe anymore.

MBr · Post by **MBr** » Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:33 pm

TheDoctor wrote:I'm personally in the camp that states a character's religion or lack thereof is up for debate unless confirmed in universe.

Afaik, Edgeworth has never stated that he believes in a higher power, but at the same time, he hasn't stated that he doesn't believe in one either.

Ergo, what we have here is a case of Schrodinger's Religious Cat. Edgeworth is both an Atheist and a Theist at the same time, and will remain so until we have some concrete proof telling us for certain which side he leans towards.

(That said, it is completely possible to be scientifically minded and religious at the same time. As Einstein said, "Science without religion is lame... Religion without science is blind." Just throwing that out there).

That would make him agnostic. Atheists denounce the existence of a deity. Agnostics accept the possibility, but only make their decision based on logic and evidence (which hasn't happened as of yet).

Nearavex · Post by **Nearavex** » Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:38 pm

...must... not... start... a... religion... discussion...

Vinegarette · Post by **Vinegarette** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:52 pm

Kartoon Kween wrote:My money's on agnostic. There's no hard evidence that God exists, yet there is no hard evidence that suggests that God does NOT exist. I can't see Miles definitively saying that there are no gods, because there is no proof. That being said, I don't think he's the type to waste his time wondering about the Great Unknown. Rather than believing in concepts such as "the Will of God," he believes that human beings are responsible for forming their own destiny (at least, that's my interpretation of his character).

I agree! To me, the image of Edgeworth pondering on religious questions is out of balance. My thought is that he would be surprised himself when asked questions about his religious stances, simply because he never thought over it much. He wouldn't have found the need to, since he believes in humans' power to decide their own path. On the other hand, his position on 'spiritual' beings may have changed during his (more positive) encounters with the Fey clan. From a staunch disbeliever to something like 'Could be real... Eh, no I'm still not buying it no don't make me'.

In regards to some other opinions made on this thread, I really don't think the Fey clan's worshiping ancestor thing can be classified as 'religious'. It's really more of a cultural-traditional thing prevalent in Japan, regardless of religious beliefs, isn't it?

Rubia Ryu the Royal · Post by **Rubia Ryu the Royal** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:25 pm

Ah, this thread. Brings back silly memories of silly debates.

Spirit channeling has nothing to do with religion, and it doesn't suggest whether or not a character is religious. It just suggests whether or not they believe the dead can be revived. In this universe, it actually happens, so what's supposedly up for debate is whether or not the Fey clan is legit. Are they actually summoning the spirits of the dead, or are they simply illusions that anyone can potentially see? Edgeworth has come face to face with Mia being channeled and doesn't bat an eye at it. The Magatama, meanwhile, is a complete mystery because only the wielder of the item can actually see these locks. He bats an eye at this because Nick once forced it onto him.

And I really don't see what ancestral worship has anything to do with this topic either.

venser · Post by **venser** » Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:11 pm

To change the topic, wasn't the prosecutor issue bothering Edgeworth during Rise from the Ashes and through Justice for All described by him several times as "the sins we have committed", if my memory is correct? To me it seemed like he always took that stuff very seriously in a sense almost asking for religious forgiveness.

The way he was completely withdrawn though the beginning of JFA shows his internal struggle took quite a long time to work out; don't you think there could have been something else in play there? But then again, I guess that whole thing with the loss of Manfred von Karma as a mentor as well as his father could also have made him become an atheist... I can see him pretty much either way.

tiger_festival · Post by **tiger_festival** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:34 am

venser wrote:To change the topic, wasn't the prosecutor issue bothering Edgeworth during Rise from the Ashes and through Justice for All described by him several times as "the sins we have committed", if my memory is correct? To me it seemed like he always took that stuff very seriously in a sense almost asking for religious forgiveness.

I'm pretty sure he never used that phrase. And even if he did, I can think of a few non-religious people using the word "sin" in that way.

But in all honesty, I really don't see what difference it makes if Edgeworth is religious or not.

Gammalad · Post by **Gammalad** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:41 am

I am sure Edgeworth ponders it from time to time, and may have his own convictions when it comes to this, but I feel like this is just better left to mystery on what drives the man.

Nearavex · Post by **Nearavex** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:10 pm

I honestly just can't picture Edgeworth worshiping angels, Christian God, Jesus Christ and all that, seriously. The moment I saw Edgeworth praying in fanfiction, it would instantly became out-of-character in my eyes.
It might be also caused be my thoughts about said religion, but that's just how I feel about that.

Sin is often used to define a deed morally wrong.
The usage of this word is about as synonymous with Christianity as presence of angels in any kind of anime universe - it just isn't, despite originating from said religion.

Note that "isn't synonymous" doesn't mean "negates". Still, using word "sin" doesn't make someone a worshiper, especially in Japanese media, since their word for sin is "罪" which means literally "sin", "blame", "guilt", "fault" or even "crime". There's no real religious indication, at least in Christian context.

So far the only canon mention of religion we have in script, is an ambiguous "God" entity which may or may not refer to Christian God.

tiger_festival · Post by **tiger_festival** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:56 pm

So far the only canon mention of religion we have in script, is an ambiguous "God" entity which may or may not refer to Christian God.

The other mention is in Turnabout Corner; near the end of Day 1 Investigation.

Guard: The father's talking in the private room with him.
Trucy: The father? You mean like a priest?
Guard: I mean the suspect's father, Mr. Winfred "Big Wins" Kitaki himself.

Nearavex · Post by **Nearavex** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:59 pm

Alright, that much makes clear about at least this one religion in AA verse, at least in English version. I myself had Redd White quote in mind "I hope your piece with God, Mr. Wright", or something like that. Good catch.

Still same opinion about Edgeworth tho.

TheBlackquillz · Post by **TheBlackquillz** » Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:31 am

sumguy28 wrote:I'm sure he never used that phrase. And even if he did, I can think of a few non-religious people using the word "sin" in that way.

That's really similar to the way someone says "bless you" if you sneeze, even if they don't have a religion and therefore can't really bless anyone, per se...

ANYWAY. I kind of always thought of pretty much everyone in the Ace Attorney stuff (excluding Maya and all them other spirit mediums) were atheist. I mean, it's not like I'm saying "there's never a Bible quote, everyones an atheist" or something like that, but you would really expect someone who is meant to judge people on their actions and not their lifestyle would be an atheist for like of not being biased to clients who believe in a certain something? I'm also not generalizing lawyers to all be atheists, by the way. And final thing... uh, this game was developed in Japan. So, I really don't think a bunch of game developers would make all of the main characters catholic just for the heck of it.

Nearavex · Post by **Nearavex** » Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:54 pm

Truth be told, the only person who showed any explicit belief in this subject was Regina and no one really took that seriously...

TheDoctor · Post by **TheDoctor** » Tue Oct 21, 2014 3:08 pm

Like I said, it's a case of Schrodinger's Cat. All the characters believe in everything and nothing until otherwise observed. =P

Nearavex · Post by **Nearavex** » Tue Oct 21, 2014 3:52 pm

I suppose... Still... my personal view is that I myself wouldn't really like anime-style media I am a fan of to be too mixed up with our real, kinda boring mostly-Christian society... But perhaps this just my own ideology at work.

Rubia Ryu the Royal · Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:23 pm

This is why we need a religious nut of a witness in one of these games (maybe in DGS since they're in London and all), if only to prove how ambiguous everyone else is.

Well, okay, so I just want someone who delivers a religious sermon on the stand. My point still stands, though.
Not to stereotype religious people or anything, but I find this sort of thing rather amusing.

Nurio · Post by **Nurio** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:54 am

Nearavex wrote:Truth be told, the only person who showed any explicit belief in this subject was Regina and no one really took that seriously...

I am not sure how relevant exactly this is (which possibly is your point).
The things Regina believed in made her get out of touch with reality. She lived in her own world with her own rules, and other people suffered from that. That is the reason why the rest was (passively or actively) against it. Not because she believed in something unproven/unrealistic/illogical (i.e. some religions, to a degree), but because it ruled her life and was a hazard to herself and others.

Nearavex · Post by **Nearavex** » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:19 am

That, also is a good point, alright.

Moddragon22 · Post by **Moddragon22** » Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:49 am

I don't see any reason to believe that he isn't.