Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game. : The Hydeout (GS4)

Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:19 pm

musouka

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Croik wrote:

It's not like they took a great deal of time with Phoenix's decision to adopt Minuki anyway. It was part of a scene he was already showing to the jury. Plus, the fact that Phoenix was looking after Minuki tied into his meeting with Kagerou, the passing on of Tensai's magic, the locket that Phoenix ripped from Kagerou's neck (which was never fully explained in 4-1), etc. All of these things have a lot more to do with the case at hand than "by the way, I also have friends!"

The point is, you didn't "have" to see anything but Mr. Hat. Does it make sense that he'd drop that bit of information to the players? Sure, why not. As you said, it helps tie things together--much in the way using Edgeworth as an explanation to why he can even SHOW his little video to the court, and "hay imma friends with a spirit medium" as to why he's got a pimped up magatama and is reading people's brain waves would have done the same thing and would have taken as little time as the Minuki scene. But things like "okay call me Papa wow this isn't creepy at allll" and seeing his superfluous thoughts while in court don't exactly mesh with the idea that the Mason System is "just about the facts", or negate the fact that the "narrative" Phoenix is presenting is full of holes big enough to walk through.

Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:12 pm

Gerkuman

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You know, it's not that we think that these things shouldn't be addressed becuase they really should. I think that some of the things you suggested would be a good thing. It's just you're implying that the abscence of two lines broke the game, and I don't think thats really fair on the animators, artists, all the humour, the interesting characters and the main incharge himself. Because the rest of the game is interesting :3

Thats why I argued in this topic before. XD

Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:25 pm

musouka

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This isn't the "why GS4 is broken" topic. This is a topic about Phoenix's characterization as it pertains to GS4. These things didn't "break" GS4--they "broke" Phoenix as a character that logically follows from his GS1~3 roots.

There's a lot more wrong with the game than "Maya and Edgeworth didn't show up in any capacity", however that is the prime flaw when it comes to Phoenix.

Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:38 pm

Gerkuman

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Nevertheless, we have no topic for that. If there was, we could see your other faults with the game :3

But still, I think the same thing applies. Inferring that the absence of two lines breaking a CHARACTER seems a bit drastic to me. But that just might be my opinion

Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:48 pm

musouka

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It's not the absence of two lines, it's the absence of two characters. There's a world of difference.

Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:30 pm

Gerkuman

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Yes, but the two characters would only be referenced. Thats not enough to substantiate anything. If Edgey hadn't appeared in JFA, then all we'd know was that he was being sulky in another country. Which really would've got people angry, yes?

So the only real way to please the fans would be to bring the characters into the story, and that would distract from Orodoki.

Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:35 pm

musouka

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Nope, that's not a logical jump. Edgeworth had to appear in order to tie the GS2 plot together. In this case, since the vast majority of the plot should (have) be focused on Apollo, Edgeworth and Maya references would only work in tandem with filling some of Phoenix's holes.

Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:57 pm

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Yes, Mu's right - Maya and Edgeworth don't need to show up in person or take huge sections of the plot for us to feel that they're still in Phoenix's life and he still loves them. Just referencing those two characters would be more than enough for us to feel their presence, and that would be worth a lot in helping us recognize Phoenix as Phoenix instead of Random Jaded Ex-Lawyer Hobo. (Who could have been a good character on his own, really, if he wasn't supposed to be Phoenix Wright.)

It wouldn't solve everything - if Phoenix still forged evidence even with Edgeworth as part of his life, there would still be something irreparably BROKEN there - but it would help a lot.

Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:19 pm

Croik

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I don't think a mention of Maya or Edgeworth would have been a bad thing (though I disagree with the notion that Edgeworth had anything to do with the Mason System, but that's a an issue for another time). It's not like I think the Mason System is perfect, I'm just trying to think about it from the developers' point of view. Would a one line "My friends tried to be supportive but couldn't help me" really satisfy anyone? Maya DID get one line in 4-2 that confirms Phoenix is still in relatively close contact with her, but I don't believe you were satisfied with that, either.

My problem with the Mason System was the way Phoenix behaved in the future settings. I liked his Hobohodo personality, but since we were back in Phoenix's POV all the snark he had going through GS4 just vanished for a while. It didn't make much sense that he and Zakku were so civil to each other, especially after what they'd been through and what came next.

And..."call me papa" was a bit creepy :B

But I would like to give the writers the benefit of the doubt and believe that MS was an abridged, edited version of reality. When I think about it that way, I can accept that it might be better not to see Edgeworth at all, than to get a half-hearted mention with no follow up.

Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:26 pm

musouka

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Croik wrote:

I don't think a mention of Maya or Edgeworth would have been a bad thing (though I disagree with the notion that Edgeworth had anything to do with the Mason System, but that's a an issue for another time).

Well, I don't think he had anything to do with it either. I'm just saying, Phoenix being able to stand in court and help with the jury system in tandem with the police would make sense if Edgeworth pulled some strings for him--much like Edgeworth pulled some strings in GS3-5 and got a different judge and prosecutor.

Quote:

It's not like I think the Mason System is perfect, I'm just trying to think about it from the developers' point of view. Would a one line "My friends tried to be supportive but couldn't help me" really satisfy anyone? Maya DID get one line in 4-2 that confirms Phoenix is still in relatively close contact with her, but I don't believe you were satisfied with that, either.

Because that line told us nothing. I wouldn't have been happy if there had been an earthquake at one point and Phoenix had mentioned "I knew someone who really hates these" either. The line mentioning Maya was utterly throwaway. If they're going to mention his friends have it be meaningful, not a reference for the sake of a reference. I don't care that Maya really likes Steel Samurai and has the budget to send him a bunch of shit instead of visiting him--I want to know that she still has impact and import in his life. Trucy also would have been a good way to get this across. If Maya and Phoenix are still so close, it's hard to imagine Trucy doesn't know about her. Personally, from the way the game played out, I'd be surprised if she did.

Quote:

But I would like to give the writers the benefit of the doubt and believe that MS was an abridged, edited version of reality.

And I find that notion more creepy than anything mentioned so far. An "abridged, edited" version isn't reality at all. It's a lie designed to put forth a certain outlook. And it remains unchallenged. The entire point of going into court is that you have to put forth your argument and have it challenged by the opposite side, that you have to have PROOF. Not that you get to come in, show a mock up of "this is what I did" even though it makes no sense with so much of what we've seen previously. You mentioned Zack. Even looking at this as an "abridged, edited" issue--his character makes no sense.

Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:45 pm

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Well, I finished AA & JFA and is half-way T&T. Its evident that Phoenix cares for his friends like woaaaah. The fact that Phoenix himself didn't even talk about these people kinda.. irks me:o I mean, after three games, you've been with these people! Then after 3-5 too. That case totally showed how important friends are. Then all of a sudden, you're not a lawyer anymore and then no more news about your friends? That's kinda weird:o Atleast a little of info about them would have been fine. Its hard to make all assumptions with no actual evidence..

I just want to know what really happened, really:)

Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:11 pm

Konkmeister

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Apollo is crap. Hobohodo is depressing. And what happended to all of our favourite prosecutors and sidekicks? I DEMAND an explanation. :zenitora:

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Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:33 pm

Gerkuman

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Your explanation is this: You're judging Apollo on without actually seeing what he's like, maybe because you can't imagine not being able to play as Nick. That also links to your opinions on how he's changed, showing you're not prepared for him to change. That also shows why you want the old cast back.

In short, you wanted another game with Phoenix and the cast and you didn't get it, so you won't try to give it a chance.

Is that close? :3

Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Sun Nov 04, 2007 3:22 pm

Konkmeister

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No not really. But close. What about good old Edgey and Maya?

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Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Sun Nov 04, 2007 3:31 pm

Gerkuman

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Well, if you don't express how you think then I'm going to get it wrong, aren't I. :) Please tell us why you don't like Apollo, and why you find HoboNick depressing, else we wont know :D

Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Sun Nov 04, 2007 3:48 pm

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The fact that Phoenix goes from hot-shot lawyer to hobo is just lame and depressing, and Apollo just randomly came out of no-where. It would have been nicer to play as someone who is linked to the phoenix wright games, to give the GS series better flow. you dig?

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Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Sun Nov 04, 2007 4:14 pm

Gerkuman

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Yes, I do get your point. I can also see how it can be depressing. But to me at least I can't see it as depressing, because there was only one way for him to go, and that was down. The only other thing that could've happened was that Nick would've become a Mia, and no-one would've liked that as it would be too repetitive That, and I bet everyone would assume he'd die :3

On the subject of Apollo, he didn't exactly come out of nowhere but even if if has that's what a lot of people wanted. Since we couldn't have Nick, we needed fresh blood. But it wasn't going to work for everyone.

And I'm sorry if I was a bit annoying earlier. It's just that in a message board it's important to express your opinions so we can learn and be part of this community, and I wanted you to see that. Sorry if I seemed gittish. :)

Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Sun Nov 04, 2007 4:18 pm

Konkmeister

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Its cool

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Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:22 pm

Wrestler Hatman

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A lot of you put way too much faith in Capcom. Phoenix was brought back because the higher-ups forced them to. It's not the first time they've done it (and it DID ruin a franchise before, see Street Fighter before Third Strike, and even then, it took approximately two years if not more for Third Strike to gain the momentum it currently has!) Did it do a disservice to the character or the script? I dunno, maybe, probably. Not my place to judge, and I'll do it once I actually get the game.

However, I don't see how Phoenix is more contrived in GS4 than in GS1-3. He makes a tight bond with his friends? Yeah, so? Friends come and go, even the tightest buds can leave you hanging. They wouldn't have sat idly by as he descended into hobo-dom? Maybe. Then again, maybe all they knew is that Phoenix was disbarred from accusations of false evidence. Maybe they DID and it's because of that that he's not a hobo, but since they're otherwise occupied (Maya/Pearl could have been in Hazakurain training two months down the line - they DID mention they'd return to the place!), they can't think about Phoenix all the time. Of course, the game's script probably could have used more polish - I don't know, I never read it.

And honestly, if you seriously hate the game that much, don't buy the localization when it comes out. I hate saying this, but if you buy it, you support it.

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Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:52 am

Aetheryn

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I agree with you Hatman. Friends come and go--and since several years have passed just adds even more to the pile.

Just because Nick became a lawyer to help some childhood friend who was going down the wrong road doesn't mean that the feeling is mutual for everybody...and who said that Phoenix's friends bailed on him--it could've been the other way around.
"Defense Attorney Phoenix Wright Choses Death", anyone?

Too lazy... hur hur.

Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:53 am

xylophone220

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More like "Defense attorney Phoenix Wright chooses to be a hobo" :P

Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:47 am

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I don't completely agree with the "if you buy it, you support it" claim. If you are someone who knows absolutely nothing about the game (which is probably no one around here...) you are neither supporting it or against it. You're buying it to see what'll happen next. You don't automatically become a supporter just by purchasing a product if you happen to know little to nothing about it...

However, I currently have no argument to support my opinion on this matter, so I'm staying silent about that.
But a few reasons I might pick up this game is for a) Ema returning as a detective, b) the new DS features, c) the new music, and d) a new protagonist, whom we'll get to evaluate based on his performance in court and his personality traits.

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Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 7:12 am

Aetheryn

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xylophone220 wrote:

More like "Defense attorney Phoenix Wright chooses to be a hobo" :P

Semantics. :sawit:

Too lazy... hur hur.

Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:22 pm

Croik

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Slezak wrote:

...so I'm staying silent about that.

But that could be bad for you down the line!!

Quote:

However, I don't see how Phoenix is more contrived in GS4 than in GS1-3. He makes a tight bond with his friends? Yeah, so? Friends come and go, even the tightest buds can leave you hanging. They wouldn't have sat idly by as he descended into hobo-dom? Maybe.

The thing is, there isn't any solid evidence that Phoenix's friends "abandoned" him, or he them. They certainly didn't show up to introduce themselves to Apollo, but why would they? And I still believe that Maya being left out of the Mason System was a simple matter of convenience for the narrative.

Phoenix and his friends are adults now. They have their own lives to live, their own responsibilities. The entire game of GS4 takes place over...about 11 days, over the span of 7 months. Who's to say that Phoenix didn't give any of his friends a call on one of the 200-odd days we DON'T see in the game?

(And to be honest, I find it much easier to believe that Phoenix became Hobohodo over 7 years of life changing circumstances, than to believe that the sobbing, half braindead Feenie in 3-1 became the laid back Phoenix over 3 years.)

Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:32 pm

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Croik wrote:

Slezak wrote:

...so I'm staying silent about that.

But that could be bad for you down the line!!

And it's your job to turn that around in our favour, yeah?

Croik wrote:

(And to be honest, I find it much easier to believe that Phoenix became Hobohodo over 7 years of life changing circumstances, than to believe that the sobbing, half braindead Feenie in 3-1 became the laid back Phoenix over 3 years.)

I'd be inclined to believe that Mia was a catalyst in the change from the Feenie era. I'd assume Mia's worked with him for at least a year, so she should've beat some sense into him. And if we got by the manga in the GS:YG manual, she actually did beat sense to him. >_>

fuck

Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:32 pm

Wrestler Hatman

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Croik wrote:

The thing is, there isn't any solid evidence that Phoenix's friends "abandoned" him, or he them. They certainly didn't show up to introduce themselves to Apollo, but why would they? And I still believe that Maya being left out of the Mason System was a simple matter of convenience for the narrative.

Phoenix and his friends are adults now. They have their own lives to live, their own responsibilities. The entire game of GS4 takes place over...about 11 days, over the span of 7 months. Who's to say that Phoenix didn't give any of his friends a call on one of the 200-odd days we DON'T see in the game?

Quite frankly, that's what I'm saying. We DON'T know. For all we know, they're not mentioned because of what Croik says : They're not important to Apollo's story. If and when they are, they'll be mentioned.

Croik wrote:

(And to be honest, I find it much easier to believe that Phoenix became Hobohodo over 7 years of life changing circumstances, than to believe that the sobbing, half braindead Feenie in 3-1 became the laid back Phoenix over 3 years.)

Laid back and sarcastic Phoenix, even. One is just letting what was kept inside, out (the sarcasm et al.), but the other is almost a complete 180.

Slezak wrote:

I don't completely agree with the "if you buy it, you support it" claim. If you are someone who knows absolutely nothing about the game (which is probably no one around here...) you are neither supporting it or against it. You're buying it to see what'll happen next. You don't automatically become a supporter just by purchasing a product if you happen to know little to nothing about it...

I'm talking about the people who just keep talking about how bad it is because they "butchered" Phoenix and completely removed the rest of the cast except for cameos here and there.

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Last edited by Wrestler Hatman on Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:33 pm

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Raelle wrote:

Croik wrote:

I still don't see why everyone is convinced that the people in Phoenix's life just "disappeared".

Spoiler:

Ha! and thats exactly how I feel about game 4 so far.

Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:49 am

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I'm going to choose to be optimistic about this and believe Phoenix does indeed keep up the bonds he had with his old friends, Apollo is just never around to see it. Even if Maya's the head of the Fey clan, I highly doubt she never has time to invite him and Trucy over for a weekend, or vist him in the hospital. We don't necessarily know she mailed the DVDs to Nick either, she could had easily visited him in person as well, she just left before Apollo did. If she didn't care as much about him anymore, she would had just sent a card that says, "sorry u got hit hope you survive lawl", instead she gave him a truckload of DVDs, proving she does care a lot about him. :maya:

Regarding Phoenix saying "A kid who likes that sort of thing", call it my Phoenix/Maya shipper side talking, but perhapes he's just shy about what she did for him. :bellboy:

As for Edgeworth, I'm with the people who believe he helped Phoenix pull some strings with the courts to arrange the jury system. Might very well be something he had been working for during the years between AA3 and AA4, and who better then a man he trusted to help him get it set up?

Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:48 am

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Spoiler:

Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:50 pm

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Even though Phoenix is'nt the lawyer... I don't hate him...

Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:54 am

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I liked to believe that Phoenix still keeps up with his friends, but...

Spoiler: GS4 WHOLE GAME INCLUDING THE CREDITS spoilers

So, yeah. I like all the new characters, but it would have been better if they'd left Phoenix as a successful lawyer who shows up every so often to give Apollo pointers without being a complete deus ex machina. I'm sure they could have come up with interesting plotlines for Kristoph and Trucy that didn't involve Phoenix's character being completely raped. I like him being snarky and bitter, but I... don't like the other parts. :sadshoe:

LET THOSE BATH TOWELS FLY FREE

Re: Okay, now I see why people hated Phoenix in this game.

Sun Jan 06, 2008 2:35 pm

Croik

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I don't think the wording was "only." Might have been "new." I should play through the game again before the English comes out...

Spoiler: 4-4