Indeed..



I do kinda like Viola/Kristoph... but I'm also trying to debate and such....

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And I love Apollo's pairingness. You really CAN pair him with everyone.

Which is why I pair him with Klavier. Two of the most huggable characters in the whole series....together. It's PERFECT.

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>_> That's how I would kinda see it if Viola.. found out.

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Considering how high-profile court cases appear to be in the Ace Attorneyverse, she'd have to find out eventually.

To Doc:
I don't mean to be a cruel bastard. I'd love to see you develop the pairing further and put some real thought and reasoning behind it. The points I've brought up thus far simply highlight what I see as a major gap in their story (and your fanfiction thus far), and it's something that you'll have to rectify by interpreting and developing both characters on your own. Relationships are about more than simply romance.

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I noticed that line as well...
I certainly prefer Fran in T&T to JFA.

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I wondered if I'd end up provoking you, musouka. I sense you are a worthy opponent. I shall attempt to answer your questions and counterarguments. En garde!

As for canon scenes in support of his tendency to stuff and eventually explode, a handy condensed example can be found at the end of each game when the other characters throw unpleasant surprises at him in rapid succession. Why is it that I feel like I want to scream? He ends all three sequences by shouting:

Note that he's not in the courtroom when he does this. Also, while he doesn't necessarily shout at Miles when they meet in 2-4, we see him greet Miles with a stiffness and searing hostility reminiscent of a long-heated slab of granite. In smaller, tempered doses, we see his "stuff and erupt" tendencies come out consistently in his interactions with Maya. Again he doesn't (usually) shout, but he's often unnecessarily curt with her, denying her whims with a vehemence not suited to the occasion. The disproportionate strength of his responses would hint at randomness, even though it was in fact the product of sustained irritation. As for his sensitivity, there's the way he takes his lumps in court. He doesn't roll with the punches very well. He's good at formulating counterarguments, but his spirits have a way of really going down when the prosecution lands a blow, especially early on.

Annoyance...it was a valiant try, but you're confirming my earlier point with this. Yes, Phoenix does usually react with a sigh and a shake of the head and that may very well be what Miles needs, but on Phoenix's side of the equation, I see stuffing at work. It may be good for Miles, but it taxes Phoenix to do that. He may be able to keep it going for a while, but eventually, he won't be able to hold it in. "Random" anger follows. Franziska is better able to keep that up for two reasons: 1. She's more thick-skinned. 2. She gives vent to her anger far more often--perhaps too often. As for concrete examples of annoyance, here's some food for thought:

"I have something definitive that you lack."
"I believe now it is your turn--to entertain us, make us laugh."
"Stubborn as always. I told you that has nothing to do with this case!"
"Wright, please. I'm the prosecutor for this case. You do not simply expect me to discuss the case with you over tea!?"
"I don't have the time for you to show me useless evidence."
"You were always so...simple. To a fault, even."
"He is a god of prosecution, Wright--a god. He is a man to be feared."

As for Miles's reaction to Phoenix's outbursts, the one you cite is one Miles was basically prepared for. He knew he would cause a stir when he left the suicide note and disappeared. Phoenix's "you should have died" speech is a logical extension of that. He hasn't had much of a chance to experience the pattern of Phoenix's temper, as he's been absent most of the time.

Stability...I think you misread me a little here. I did not say that they were unstable apart from each other. They've both proven their mettle alone. I simply said that their relationship as a couple would be unstable. Their personalities don't mesh very well up close. Yes, they know each other well and minister to each other well...at their current distance, where they can truly retreat from each other and recharge. They're good close friends, but a relationship as a couple calls for closer proximity than does a friendship. It tends to bring out all the little quirks about someone that bug you and shove them in your face. I don't think they'd be equipped to deal with each other's quirks very well when those quirks are made inescapable.

@Xero Wright: "Schadenfreude" translates as "satisfaction or pleasure felt at someone else's misfortune". In this case, I'm referring to laughter had at Mia's expense.

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There's no need to get upset. This is just a debate thread. We aren't trying to trash your favorite pairings, but a good debate can be fun. Anyway, my two cents on the pairing.

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Well, that's what debate threads are for

Anyway, given what you just said about Klavier, I tend to disagree. When I played the Japanese GS4, I felt that both are EQUALLY bullying one another. Ema about her strict and cold position with Klavier about his laid-back attitude and his tendency to go random in seemingly serious moments. Actually, two sides of the Klavier family has been played in the opinions of both Apollo and as well as Phoenix during his flashbacks to that case that got him disbarred. If you look carefully, you'll see that he is dominating in his position and at the same time, a great womaniser to some degree. Of course, this is useless until you've played it which is hard given the English won't come out in another 5 more days.

I apologise for the double post but I wanted to two different posts to address another argument here...





The first time I played Phoenix Wright, I thought that this couple would be happen. Well, they did fit all the usual cliches in a romantic comedy such as the differences in both of them (Phoenix was introduced as a fresh youngling out of law school and Mia having to be the more mature and experienced mentor) and meeting under unusual circumstances (well, they did meet in 3-1 as being defendant and defence attorney).

Whilst others felt that in 3-1, Mia was being a bit harsh in savaging Feenie in court was a sort of stake in the chances of having a relationship. I tend to disagree. Looking it from another perspective, I could see that Mia only wanted the truth and nothing but the truth to be told. You also have to look at the ending with her comforting Feenie after revealing his GF being an utter bitch in the simplest language possible.

Too bad Mia did die off relatively early as she was one of my favourite characters but I do feel that there could have been something if Mia didn't die off like that. My 2c but feel free to yank it off me and buy an argument...

I'm late to the party on this one, but please please please stop talking about GS4 pairings in this thread. Especially spoilery ones. Take it to the Prosecution Lobby.

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Gregory, your arguments make a lot of sense and are very structurally sound. I love your exposition on the Phoenix/Iris pairing. However, I have to disagree on your interpretation of Phoenix's 'volcanic temper'. I don't believe things are quite as dire as you describe, especially where his interaction with Maya is concerned. I see their interaction as mostly humorous byplay, with Phoenix being mildly exasperated but secretly amused when he is forced to shoot down her crazy ideas time and again, and Maya knowing that Phoenix isn't out to hurt her when he does it a little more emphatically than usual. There may be a few cases where he really rebukes her and like you said she does act contrite on those occasions, but that's the exception rather than the rule. On the whole, the way Phoenix and Maya joke is the most endearing part of their interaction for me, and a key part of what makes them so much fun to write and read.


And I don't agree that Mia tearing into Phoenix's younger self in 3-1 kills the idea of romance between them later on. I don't know if you noticed, but I did get the impression that Phoenix has changed a whole lot since then, getting his inner Butz under control.


Quizer

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Now, when it comes to / I think it's cute, but assuming she survived, I'm not sure how big of a chance they would have had after all...

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Well, thank you Quizer! I have begun replaying 3-2 just now and watching Phoenix and Maya interact so far, your argument on that point has the ring of truth. I do believe I may have overstated the situation there. Their interaction does seem more jocular here than I was thinking when I last posted. Thanks for setting me straight. As for your comments on Phoenix/Mia, I see your point there as well. In that section I was speaking more from my own personal feelings at the moment than true analysis. You've made it easier for me to accept the relative unimportance of 3-1, but I do still have some reservations carrying over from her posthumous behavior in JFA. "Stealing MY lines now are we?" Her deliberately cryptic way of nudging Phoenix along also carries some minor irritations. These are relatively small concerns of course, but they do give me pause when taken together. Not that I don't think this pairing could work; it just doesn't occupy the exalted position it used to in my mind.

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But for it to be an issue with temper then he has to show anger. He's objecting to the idea of paying a huge bill or sitting under a cold waterfall in subzero weather, but he doesn't seem angry about it. (Plus, you're missing the fact that it's a joke. Comic relief. A light note to end each game upon.)



Other people have pointed out that this is a pretty severe misreading of the Maya and Phoenix relationship. You are missing the humor mixed in with his exasperation. Do you really think he's serious when he's "hoping she'll run off with the circus", so he'll "have some peace and quiet"? Phoenix can be sardonic and sarcastic at times, but what you're missing is that he let's things go. For it to be a "building" situation then the anger has to actually build. The only time we've ever seen him do this is in a very rare situation--when he thought Edgeworth had killed himself.

But even then, there are factors that he didn't allow himself a release valve, because he tried to avoid thinking or talking about it. Whereas when he is confronted with Maya's more hairbrained schemes or Edgeworth at his most emo-tastic, he is able to deal with it himself with an inward quip and move on. So to the idea that he needs someone to coddle him to relieve this explosion of anger that's building inside him is really sort of strange, in all honesty.

(Perhaps you're just not familiar with the tsukkomi/boke style of comedy?)




But, again, you are missing the part where he's always able to rally and turn it around himself. I mean, you never see him on a downward spiral where he flips out because he's just so frustrated and tears all his papers before ranting at the prosecution and running off screaming. Let's give Phoenix a little bit of credit here as an adult that can deal with his own moods.



That might be what you see, but there is no evidence that Phoenix feels that way at all. Again, why bother seeking Edgeworth out to make him feel better about the earthquake issue if it's not something Phoenix himself wants to do. Edgeworth might be difficult to deal with, but there's still no evidence that Phoenix feels upset or annoyed while doing it beyond a sort of "same old Edgeworth" that's almost affectionate.



Then what about Iris? In your Phoenix/Iris scenario, you put Iris in charge or soothing all of Phoenix's "moods". What about how hard it is for her to live with a man that hates the older sister that she's always loved? The problem with your Phoenix/Iris is that it's good for Phoenix, but Iris doesn't get anything out of it on her end. She can't even publically mourn someone she cares about--Phoenix would never understand. Even your "Iris's redemeption" is focused on "what she did to Phoenix". It's a lot more complicated than that, and Phoenix's "forgiveness" won't make it all better by a long shot.



Quotes out of context don't really give us the fool picture, Gregory. Any more than me claiming "Thanks to you, I am saddled with unnecessary... feelings." is Edgeworth proclaiming his affections. Luckily, I dug through all of these quotes I could find and showed Phoenix's actual reactions. Irritation was in pretty short supply, sadly.



Phoenix: I'll pass on the tea. Just tell me about the case...





Phoenix: Well, maybe yeah, but...



Phoenix: Hmm. Sounds like someone else I know, Edgeworth.

This is proof that interacting with Edgeworth causes him to push down irritation that would eventually tear their relationship apart? Sorry, that's a pretty big stretch when you look at their actual conversations.

[/quote][/quote]

This only works if there is indication that either of them needs to "recharge" away from the other. Edgeworth might be flying back to Europe as soon as the case is done, but all one has to do is note the way he deals with people that really do get under his skin, like Larry and Gumshoe, to see that his relationship with Phoenix is markedly different.

Phoenix is familiar enough with Edgeworth's quirks that he can describe them in detail to Ema even after fifteen years. They both know what the other is like, and they would also know what gets on the other's nerves. If they were ina relationship, would they fight? Of course they would. EVERY couple fights. But, more importantly, Phoenix and Edgeworth have shown the ability not to let anything get in the way of their relationship. Both of them have sacrificed for one another in a way that no two characters in the series have--even Iris was willing to let Phoenix reenter and leave her life again without comment until Edgeworth blackmailed her into telling the truth to Phoenix...for Phoenix's sake.

The point of a relationship isn't to be together with someone that never annoys you, it's to be together with someone you love--someone you love enough to overlook what annoys you, to accept what annoys you. Phoenix, in being able to shrug and confront an Edgeworth at his most prickly has shown a willingness to accept that side of Edgeworth. Edgeworth, who values the truth above almost everything else, is willing to throw a trial and even impersonate a defense attorney because Phoenix needs him to-- which shows he values that "simplicity to a fault" that Phoenix displays.

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X : You can see these too together. Really.

They just go together too, y'know?


X : You can't really see this happening though. They seem too close to be involved in a relationship with each other. I mean, seriously, they're like siblings when they're together! You can't just really see this. No offense to people who ship this pairing, though.

X : YESYESYES CAPCOM YOU CAN MAKE THIS OFFICAL! Gumshoe and Maggey is a MUST.


I think Maggey likes him, even though he was her boss and all.


This is a YESYESYES. AJR APPROVES. XP

X : I'm not really sure about this pairing though. I have nothing against yuri or anything, but I don't think it's that likley.

X : SERIOUSLY. No offense, but REALLY, guys.

X :NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

X : I think Lana belongs with Neil more, but she can still fit with Jake.


Phew...so, no offense to people who ship the pairings that I disagreed with.

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Mu, you never cease to amaze. Yet again, my respect for you awesomeness has only gone up like another 1000 points. If I wasn't atheist, you would be my god. That's for sure. Writing, debating, what can't you do?

I don't want to get in the middle of this, but I feel the need to address this point because its clear that wasn't why Iris agreed.

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Last edited by Mia_Fey on Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

On the other hand, she certainly didn't say "no" like Lana did when it came to someone defending her. Iris didn't want to die, but she wasn't willing to betray Godot either. This has absolutely nothing with what I was talking about, though.



Yes, as I said, he had to blackmail her into telling Phoenix. I guess she's just not good enough to read that Phoenix is still in pain over all this like Edgeworth is, huh? :p



The Japanese makes this clear that she's refering to "love letters", not "someone being in love with her".



Of course her intentions weren't bad. But they weren't nearly as selfless as you're claiming they are. Why do you think Edgeworth is so hard on Iris here, demanding that she tell Phoenix the truth? It's not just to ease Phoenix's pain, it's because he's been in the exact same situation and he knows what it's like to not want to face Phoenix's rejection if he "really knew how bad I was". Painting it as "protecting Phoenix" is only half the story--she was protecting herself. He's harsh on her because "we're the same", in Iris's own words.

And I still don't see why you're arguing that Iris not being in turne with Phoenix's suffering in the same way Edgeworth is makes her the better partner.



Then there's no real point for her to accept Edgeworth's defense in the first place, unless we assume that Iris is not a saint, but a mere mortal of flesh and blood who would rather not die.

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I answer these first two together down below.

You miss the fact that she knew she was going down for murder. She doesn't say no because he's doing so at Phoenix's request and she can't bring herself to refuse him. Don't forget that Lana allows Phoenix to defend her at Ema's request as well despite the fact that she planned to be found guilty. She doesn't ask for his help and only accepts it after hearing Phoenix's name. "Yes, at the trial tomorrow... He asked me to defend you." " ... If Mr. Wright has that much faith in you, Mr. Edgeworth... ...Then I will gladly entrust my fate in your capable hands." She's even clearly surprised to hear that Phoenix made such a request on her behalf. "..I visited Wright at the hospital before coming here. He asked me to take care of you..." "...M-Me?" She does seem to try to talk him out of defending her at the beginning of the first day of trial, but he insists and Iris isn't good at handling conflict with anyone as we see repeatedly, so she quiets down when he tells her to.

Comes down to the same thing. To have someone feel so much for her that they would write love letters to her is just baffling to her. If she can't conceive of that, how does she possibly deal with the idea that Phoenix is still in pain because of her five years later. She doesn't believe she can inspire that kind of feeling and assumed once she was gone, he would move on with his life.

She sees him again for two short periods of time (not counting the feast before Maya leaves as that was a large group and Phoenix was likely occupied by Maya and Pearl), only one of those times they are alone, where they have little time to talk and she is distracted with the "blackmail letter" and Godot's plan (as well as of course worrying that Phoenix might get caught up in this, hence she gives him the hood to protect him despite the fact that it means that it can't protect her and warns him to be careful- she also can't tell him about what's going on as by this point she has the Kurain Master and a well respected prosecutor telling her that the plan is the right thing to do. She is very trusting and naive, as well as being severely outranked, so she believes that the plan must go through and has probably been told by Misty, who knows who they are, at this point to be quiet about everything). Compare that to Edgeworth whose only real concern was Phoenix's well-being at the time (he doesn't even have Iris's defense on his mind as he hasn't accepted yet by this point) and who has now known him for three years by this point as well as having a long talk with him at the hospital (when his defenses would have been weaker, making him far easier to read then is normal). They are completely different situations and you can't really compare them as far as one noticing while the other doesn't.

Except that he mentions this is what Phoenix wants. She feels guilty enough for what she put him through that she does concede to the request if this is what Phoenix wants. She doesn't seemed to be overly concerned about her own defense and even refuses to answer Edgeworth's questions before Larry takes the stand despite the fact that having a lack of knowledge puts him at a disadvantage (and this of course directly effects her as she is the one on trial). Besides as I mentioned, she gives him a really easy out before the trial even begins.

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There is absolutely no indication of this. She "refuses" Phoenix when he asks her to name the person who called her, and she "refuses" Phoenix when he asks her point blank if they've met before. Iris isn't an idiot--if Phoenix is asking her questions about their past, it's hard to imagine that she doesn't have the faintest clue that he has a vested interest in getting to the bottom of things.

She refuses to answer, not to protect him, but to protect herself. She could very well have explained what happened to Phoenix, have gone to him against Godot's orders and brought him into the plot to protect Maya's life. She didn't.



I don't see a "fight" in those words. Also, Iris is perfectly capable of saying no to people if she chooses to, even to Phoenix. See above.



And, again, the fact that Phoenix is there and asking questions is enough for anyone who wants to to put two and two together. Even if she doesn't think Phoenix still loves her, does that mean he still doesn't deserve the truth? The words Edgeworth uses to get to her are about Phoenix's suffering, not "Phoenix is still in love with you, Iris!" (because he isn't, IMO, but that's another argument)



That one time alone, he deliberately asks if they've met before. How is that not proof that he wants to know what happened? Distracted or not, Edgeworth still has to appeal to her to get her to tell Phoenix the truth. He has to tell her Phoenix is still suffering over it--and it's not like he had hours alone with him either. He can just read him better.



And Phoenix also wanted to know if they had met before, so of course she started telling him the truth about what really happened--oh wait. Look at the line you quoted. It's not "if this is what Mr. Wright really wants", it's "if Phoenix trusts you, then I trust you"--meaning that she trusts Phoenix to get her through this alive, even if she can't go against her own moral code and betray Godot. Iris might have agreed to take the fall, but there's no indication that she wanted to.

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His being curious about the similarity in appearance isn't the same as admitting that he's in pain and there really isn't any reason for Iris to read it as such. She knows she looks like her sister and she knows he's asking about the past, but what she doesn't know is that he's still in pain. If I saw someone who looked almost exactly like my ex, I would probably question them as well. She believes that telling him will cause him more pain as she believes that he moved on long ago. What reason would she have to doubt it? He shows up with Maya and Pearl, and seems pretty happy overall through most of the beginning part. He gets awkward around her, but anyone would when staring at someone who looks so strikingly familiar even if you don't know them. She has no reason to interpret this as anything, but curiosity, so she continues to keep her silence. There's no reason to bring mention it and bring up painful memories from the past when he seems to have moved on. I think she might even mistake Maya for his girlfriend at one point, but I'm not positive. She actually doesn't seem to show any surprise at his request to ask her a few question because anyone would inquire into such a shocking similarity (Iris is aware that she and Dahlia look alike. She pretended to be her for six months). The only difference in appearance is the hair color. That is more than just a slight similarity which you might just shrug off. That is going to provoke a few questions no matter what, but that doesn't mean she sees it as anything but simple curiosity because of this similarity. She doesn't know he has the magatama, so she tells him they haven't met before and then he can go back to his happy life with his question answered, or at least that is how she sees it.

There was nothing in their exchange indicating more than curiosity on Phoenix's part which is to be expected since she and Dahlia look so similar, but as I've said before, curiosity is a normal human trait but it doesn't automatically mean anything deeper. You've never asked someone who looks familiar if you've ever met before and maybe suggested a few possible places where you could have met just to try to place a face? I know I have, but it didn't mean anything deeper. I was just curious because I could swear I knew that person, but in my case, I couldn't remember when and where. This is how Iris seems to interpret his questions. She has no reason not to believe he's over her considering all his dreams seem to have come true as I've mentioned. Iris can't conceive that his feeling for her could ever have been so strong that he would still be hurting five years later (which is a really long time to still be stuck on someone). I already explained why she can't go against Godot. She is a shrine maiden with little knowledge of the outside world and a very trusting disposition. She has the Master of Kurain (who she has been brought up to revere) and a respected prosecutor telling her that this is the best way to protect everyone. She actually almost breaks those orders when she warns him to be careful (had Phoenix not been so clueless, he might have tried to look into that comment a little more as its seems to be a bit drastic to say that to someone whose going right back to their room after the bathroom).

Edgeworth has a very strong personality and it does tend to run people over. I also agree that there isn't much of a fight in those words, but the point is that she agrees because Phoenix wants him to "take care" of her. It's entirely clear that its because Phoenix wants this to happen. Edgeworth tells her that Phoenix is concerned for and wants him to "take care" of her and then we go into the part I quoted. What Phoenix wants to happen is pretty clear and even Edgeworth sort of sighs when he realizes that Phoenix clearly wasn't joking when he gave Edgeworth his badge. It is extremely clear what Phoenix wants and this is why Iris agrees. Iris clearly can say no when she feels she's protecting someone she cares about or whose important. We see it when she refuses to answer Edgeworth before Larry testifies. She tells him she can't answer until Maya is safe (and although she doesn't know Maya, she knows that protecting her was important to everybody and that she is special to Phoenix which adds on more of a reason for Iris to protect her).

Iris also has an inner strength that comes out every now and then and since she believes that by retaining her silence, she is protecting Phoenix, this allows her to be able to refuse to answer. Her determination to shield him from any more pain and allow wounds that she believe have healed to remain that way. She doesn't have any strong reason to refuse his defense as she's already planted pretty damaging evidence. She is spotted apparently stabbing the victim, the murder weapon has her finger prints all over it, and her bloody clothes are folded neatly in a corner instead of being thrown away. Iris has time to get rid of at least the bloody clothes after Bikini faints, but instead she puts them in her room where they are easily found. Why? Iris may be naive, but she isn't stupid. She knew well that her clothes were damaging evidence. Like with Lana, she figured the defense wouldn't really matter because she had set things up so that she would be found guilty as well as giving Edgeworth a clear out, and finally decides that if this is what Phoenix wants, Edgeworth can defend her.

Yes, that is an entirely different argument, so we'll leave that for now. She thinks the truth will cause him more pain and has no reason to think otherwise. He has become a successful lawyer, has sweet friends (and possibly a girlfriend, at least in Iris's mind), and overall seems to be happy. The truth will only open those healed wounds, so she glosses over it. His being curious over the similarity in appearance between Iris and Dahlia is not the same as admitting that he isn't past it. People are curious by nature and Phoenix is certainly no exception. In Iris's place, I would be surprised if he didn't ask a couple questions about her appearance, but as I said, showing curiosity is normal and wouldn't set off any big alarms. She clearly running under the "ignorance is bliss" theory. Was it the right decision? No, but that doesn't mean that she realized that she was causing him more pain. She thought she was protecting him.

Well that last point is debatable, but that is also a debate for another day. As I said, he sees someone who looks exactly like his ex and questions her about it. Curiosity is a common human trait and Phoenix has it in abundance (something she would know from dating him for six months). She has no reason to believe that he hasn't recovered and that she would be hurting him more by telling him.

Can we be a little less condescending, please? It isn't necessary or kind. If you don't wish to continue debating this issue, that is fine. We'll end it here with no clear cut winner. Both of us have laid out our arguments and people can read them and decide who made the better argument on their own, but the snippiness isn't necessary here. Besides, as entertaining as this has been, I'm a bit tired and this debate is more about one character's motivation then an actual pairing (And Phoenix/Iris has been debated to death in at least two threads devoted solely to debating that particular pairing, so I'm not really interested in turning this debate into one on the pairing itself as we'd likely simply be restating old arguments). I've answered part of this.

It's two different points. Telling the truth in her mind was the worst thing she could do as she would be hurting him more, Allowing Phoenix to protect her in the only way she can is harmless all around. She's set herself up to cleanly take the fall and has left plenty of evidence. In her mind, she couldn't be saved, but if Phoenix wanted to try by asking Edgeworth to defend her then no one would be harmed but her in the end. At least this way Phoenix feels like he's done all he can to help her. One action leads to pain and the other leads to satisfaction, at least in the way she is thinking at the time. I've said it again and again, Phoenix seems to have a great life. He's a successful lawyer, has a bunch of friends, and seems generally happy for most of the beginning. She can't conceive of the idea that he could still be torn up about her, so such a thing doesn't even cross her mind. He does show curiosity about her past, but she is well aware that she looks like her sister. If you saw what looked almost like a clone of your ex, even one, that you hadn't left on bad terms, wouldn't you ask if there was some relation? You've never met someone who looked familiar and asked about their past to see if you actually have met? Curiosity is human and Phoenix seems to have an extra dose of it (as Iris would know). There was no reason to read his curiosity as anything, but curiosity.

This has been fun, but I'm signing off for the night. I have a test tomorrow and it won't be on shipping debates.

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Last edited by Mia_Fey on Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

But he doesn't just ask about her looking like someone--he asks her other things, such as if she's ever gone to Ivy U and other questions. I think it's a real stretch to say that she couldn't have any idea that he wants to know what happened. Not to mention, it doesn't make any sense for him to question her about the past if he's moved on. A quick "wow, you really look like someone I knew a while ago", sure, but not the string of questions he put to her.

I mean, can you at least admit that it was also motivated by her desire to hide herself from him, out of selfishness? Because she didn't want him to judge her?



No, she agrees because she loves and trusts Phoenix, and thus trusts whoever Phoenix sends to help her.



And again, she could have taken the fall by confessing her guilt at any time, like Lana. But every time Edgeworth asks she tells him, "No, I didn't do it." She wants to be saved. She wants Phoenix to save her.



And, as Edgeworth pointed out, what she was doing was protecting herself. She didn't want Phoenix to know. No one likes showing their worst side to the person they love. Even if you don't think Edgeworth is in love with Phoenix, the truth of the matter is that he:

a) noticed Phoenix's pain
and
b) instictively knew how to make it better

That's a defining trait in their relationship. That inablity to leave the other alone when they see them suffering. Edgeworth being labeled the "demon prosecutor" didn't really have anything to do with Phoenix--but even without spending ANY time with Edgeworth, he noticed that he was suffering and did everything in his power to help save him from that pain. It's likewise with Edgeworth. Phoenix and Iris's relationship is really none of his damn business, but he can't leave it alone if it's hurting Phoenix.

And, that, to me, speaks of love. Risking and perhaps losing things you care about--Phoenix's major, Edgeworth risking his badge to help Iris for Phoenix--because you can't stand to see that person in pain. And, not only that, but recognizing it even without a lot of time spent together and knowing how to fix it. Knowing someone that well.

Yes, perhaps Iris didn't "know". But she loved and dated him for six months. I'd like to think that she "knew" Phoenix a little better than that if she really loves him. If she can't read his moods and demeanor, if she can't understand what he needs and how to help him, then how is she going to support him when he needs her in the future?



I apologize. I was out of line.

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And how do you intend to prove that he wasn't angry about this? Most people would be. Does the concept of the "understood" escape you? Now before you get too angry, I'll readily admit the counter I just typed was mean-spirited. I have no intention of making a practice of this, but I thought one statement of like tone to your post was needed to remind you of just how much I've been restraining myself and that you do your cause no good by indulging in invective. And no, it did not escape me that this was one of many jokes throughout the Phoenix Wright series. It's a running gag. All the same, much of comedy arises from pain--genuine pain. Furthermore, when discussing serious pairing possibilities among characters within a comedy, it is a mark of flippancy to make light of a given character's pain within the context of that discussion. Either we're debating serious possibilities or we're debating humor. Buzzing back and forth between frameworks in order to discredit one's opponent betrays an unhealthily keen interest in "winning" and a disregard for logic.



Yes, other people have pointed out that I was overstating the dangers in Phoenix/Maya. One of them was Quizer. As I stated in my response to him, I have begun replaying 3-2 and reading his post after some time watching Phoenix and Maya interact, I recognized the ring of truth in his words. No, I didn't think Phoenix was serious when he was "hoping she'd run off with the circus." The lack of a literal intent, however, does not disprove the contention that irritation can be found at the root of such a statement. Going on, I did not say that Phoenix was categorically incapable of releasing steam. I recognize that he is quite capable of letting things go on his own and left the option of retreating from the source of the irritation, he will succeed. Where it becomes difficult is when he shares a home--and by extension, most of his waking hours--with someone who often gets under his skin. He can cope with these problems just fine in the outside world, where the irritation comes in small enough doses and distant enough intervals to where he has time to deal with it, but if he comes home to someone who irritates him often, there's no escape from it and the potential exists that the irritations will pile up too fast for him to properly let go of them all before he's driven to the boiling point. Regarding your inquiry into my experience with Japanese comedy styles, "tsukkomi/boke" is a label with which I am unfamiliar. I don't know what this has to do with the pairing debate subject matter, but there it is.



Did I say he was incapable of rallying and turning the situation around? No. Did I say he flips out in court? No. I said his morale takes a harder hit when the tide turns against him in court than is common among law practitioners. By way of example, we have 1-2 in which he accepts a guilty verdict for himself before Mia gives him the final pep talk which inspires him to finally nail White. Furthermore, I did not use this to support my theory of "stuff and erupt". I used it to support my claim that he was sensitive--easily wounded. Finally, I did not claim that he was incapable of dealing with his own moods. I repeat from my previous reply to you: Both have proven their mettle alone.



To your first sentence here, I say, "Fair enough." However, I fail to see how one instance of comforting Miles in a vulnerable moment refutes the danger potential of a habit of caustic speech.



Remember, I said I would keep it brief as this pairing has been "debated to death". Now that you've demanded further proof of me, I will gladly elaborate. My answer to the "What about Iris?" question is simple: the support is mutual and it goes beyond forgiveness. Some of what I mean is demonstrated in Crime and Punishment, if you're interested in reading it. One of the things I stated in that thread outside the text of the fic itself is that he would also be inclined to sound her out and take her reproaches to heart even more than he would those of other characters, as her weaknesses fall more on the side of inaction. She would be uniquely free of the danger of being perceived as a "girl who cried wolf". By way of evidence of what he would do for her in canon, we have the measures he took to defend her in court during 3-5 and his attempts to protect "Dollie" in 3-1. "Dollie", as we all know, is in fact Iris.



I apologize if it came across that way, but I did not intend to present these quotes as concrete examples of "stuff and erupt". I intended to present them as examples of Miles's caustic speech and as such, things to be considered as indicators of what might await Phoenix within an intimate relationship with Miles. Context or no context, these things are worth considering. Furthermore, factoring in context does nothing to help your side of the debate. Here's why: None of these quotes are found within a intimate couple context, so they have no refutational value against my prediction.



As you pointed out, an able defense of only one side of the equation does nothing for the other half of a pairing. Your refutation of the "recharge" thesis addresses only Miles. I did not say that the be all and end all of a relationship was to avoid conflict. I will say, however, that there is something to be said for minimizing conflict. The last girl I dated I was madly in love with, but we were too opposed on too many things for it to work out in the end. I had convinced myself that I was ready to endure all manner of pain for her, but she was not up for that. Our breakup was quite unpleasant, but I'm glad we no longer date. In retrospect, we would've been fighting constantly had we tied the knot. Maybe I'm being a little too careful, but my personal experience tells me to shy away from relationships in which too many sparks are likely to fly.

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No, this doesn't make sense. Phoenix never has to "retreat" from Maya in order to let go of his irritation. He does it through sarcastic thoughts. That is his way of dealing with annoyances; he's never been shown in the game to need a place to retreat to.



You have still yet to prove that Edgeworth annoys him.



You are mistaking Phoenix playing the "tsukkomi" role to Maya's "boke" as "irritation". That's not the case.



This is also in the very first game. Phoenix is no longer the same character he was back in 1-2.



No indication of this in canon.



And, again, Phoenix in 3-1 is not the same Phoenix in 3-5. These are not static characters.



Okay. None of the quotes you originally posted are found within an intimate couple context, so they have no value as to how caustic Edgeworth would react in a relationship.



And you still haven't shown why Phoenix wouldn't be able to think something sarcastic when Miles is getting on his nerves and move on from there? The problem with your thesis is that there's not enough based in canon to refute it. Phoenix has not been shown in canon to find Maya so irritating that he explodes at her--something that you readily admit. He has not been shown to find Edgeworth outside of court irritating at all. Your entire intial point, RE: Maya and Phoenix, which your point about Phoenix and Edgeworth hinged upon, you admit was overstated. Without those factors, your thesis pretty much collapses.

The onus is on you to show scenes where we see Phoenix, under normal circumstances, by the time 3-5 rolls around, being unable or unwilling to deal with Edgeworth because he "annoys" him. If it's not in the games, I'm not going to take it as a factor in their relationship.

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Actually, I saw this quote of Mia's more as an amused quip. Underlying irritations is something that I fail to see in many of the examples shown by you over the course if this discussion. I believe it is not only possible, but likely that this kind of interaction (Between Phoenix and Maya, Phoenix and Mia, and to some extent even Phoenix and Edgeworth) is a sign of being relaxed and trusting each other, rather than irritation. Friction can be both pleasant and painful - anyone who isn't a stranger to their sexuality can tell you this, and I believe it translates just as well to the mental/emotional aspects of a relationship.


Quizer

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Edgeworth asks her if they've met before and they go through a small exchange about that, but that doesn't mean he's haunted by some great emotional torment. She just looks familiar and he wants to know why he recognizes her. Unlike Phoenix, Edgeworth didn't have any clue why he recognized her so he can't suggest a few posibilities, but would be read about the same. Should she have interpreted Edgeworth's question as some sign of great torment (she really didn't know him)? She and Dahlia share a striking similarity that would spark anyone to ask about it, but that doesn't mean the act of questioning it is a sign of there being something more. I imagine it was rather unnerving for her to have Phoenix get so close, but Iris was clearly expecting to have to answer a few questions particularly considering she is completely aware of how much she looks like her twin. Phoenix could have been over "Dollie" and still curious about why this woman looked like his ex. Wouldn't you have been? This is not "Wow, you look vaguely like this person," it's "I could swear we've met before" (from both Phoenix and Edgewoth. Anyone would be rather curious at such a striking similarity. Why does his trying to place a face mean that he's in pain? Phoenix had no reason to believe that Iris had anything to do with him (he admits as much) and Iris is clearly well aware that he never knew about her existence. "Because I may know who Phoenix Wright is... But... He has no idea who I am."

He asks a couple questions, but there isn't anything in them to indicate that he's in pain or that anything is still unresolved. Why would she believe that he can't accept what he knows now? It's clear that there aren't really unanswered questions as far as the earlier cases with Dahlia are concerned, but as Phoenix admits in the hospital, he just can't bring himself to believe those facts. Phoenix is in pain because he can't believe that the person in those files is his "Dollie" and not because facts of the case aren't clear. Had he been able to believe he dated Dahlia, he's upset for a couple years maybe at his bad judgement and maybe has some trust issues, but then he would move on. His pain is simply because he can't except what he's reading and remembers as he admits. But why would Iris know that he can't accept something which seems to be extremely clear? I've already talked about how Iris can't conceive of the notion that he has such strong feelings for her that he would still be bothered by what happened. As a result, while she must know what he's referencing, she has no reason to believe that he isn't simply curious because of the similarity. She isn't going to bring it up while he seems to be over her and reopen a closed wound. As I mentioned, his life seems to be quite good and for the most part he doesn't seem to be unhappy. His case was long since solved and resolved, except in Phoenix's mind where he still had faith in "Dollie" despite all the evidence contrary to his belief. All Iris could know was that it appeared that he had moved on and now had a wonderful life which didn't need to be complicated by her.

I agree partly with the first part. She does love and trust Phoenix, which is why she can't bare to cause him anymore pain and accepts Edgeworth's offer I also imagine that she denies the crime because she didn't want Phoenix to believe she was a murder so she denies her guilt, but she doesn't seem overly concerned with her defense. In fact, Lana's case had little hard evidence as Phoenix points out ("You insisted you "did it," yet there was no incriminating evidence") and relied mostly on her confession and Angel's testimony. The more incriminating evidence gets added during trial (the victim's shoe and the picture of Lana). With Iris, they had a weapon covered with her prints and blood-covered clothing, which are extremely strong pieces of evidence. They also have a witness with more of a reason to protect Iris then to incriminate her (unlike Angel who had a clear bias), so that testimony was very damaging. Iris didn't need to confess at the time. The evidence against her was overwhelming and Iris never was willing to give up the real killer's name even to save herself.

She also offers to let Edgeworth out of his promise right from the start (Why do this if she's so desperate to be saved?) and really offers him no information to help with her defense. In fact when he questions her about the snowmobile, she admits that she was the one that used it but insists that she can't tell him why. By this point the snowmobile is a rather major point and knowing why she used it (And it was a fact that she was the only one who could have used it which Franziska puts a great deal of emphasis on) would have been a great weapon. If she's so desperate to be saved, why not tell Edgeworth what happened and give up Godot? That would have saved her from a murder charge, but she insists that she can't explain and sends Edgeworth back into court without anything to fight with. All she's willing to say is "I didn't do it," but she refuses to aid him with the investigation and the trial. She has left evidence all over the place pointing to her (almost all of which would have been really easy to get rid of after Bikini faints) and refuses to aid in her own defense. She doesn't seem particularly worried by the idea of being found guilty and even while in jail, the first question out of her mouth is not to inquire about her own situation (which she knows all about and is prepared for), but to ask if Phoenix is okay.

She isn't even the one who brings up the crime (or the idea of her defense) at all. She falls quite after discovering that Phoenix is okay and then all the rest of her responses are in reference to his questions. Iris certainly isn't desperate to be saved as she doesn't even seem to give a thought to her defense. In fact her response to the conclusion of the first question period is "Thank you very much for listening to my story." There is still no mention of his defending her despite the fact that he is about to leave. Its just thanks for listening and bye. Edgeworth then responds "...I visited Wright at the hospital before coming here. He asked me to take care of you..." It's Edgeworth who brings up how Phoenix wants him to "take care" of her and this is the first talk about her defense in that entire exchange. She doesn't ask for help at any point and only accepts after hearing that this is Phoenix's request. I admit that I fail to see any desperation to be saved in Iris's behavior as she seems to be entirely unconcerned about her own fate throughout the exchange (and even has to be reminded by Edgeworth later that he's trying to help her because she's being uncooperative).

Iris also clearly doesn't believe that Phoenix would want to defend her and is shocked that he is apparently concerned for her and has sent Edgeworth to take care of her. Iris framed herself and she knew that she was going down for murder There is no way that she was expecting Phoenix to arrange her defense for her and there was no one else around to save her. The temple didn't have the finances to arrange for a decent defense and the only thing that seems to scare her is the idea that Phoenix might find out her secret and be further hurt by it. She loves Phoenix and this is clearly what he wants, so she consents. Remember that Lana may not be interested in being saved, but she does agree finally because of Ema's plea. Iris is similar in that she was well aware of her fate (she admits that Godot informed her off all the possible consequences), but she can't tell the man she loves no. She clearly agrees to Edgeworth's offer only after hearing that he was there at Phoenix's request.


Again though, think about the situation in which Edgeworth noticed. Phoenix is drifting in and out of consciousness as well as behind desperately worried for Maya and Iris. Hiding his feelings would be much harder under those circumstances as Phoenix's defenses would be down. Also, why is it that this is the first time Edgeworth notices that Phoenix is in pain when it is clearly something that has been bothering him for five years? He clearly states that he only noticed the strangeness when he talked about her and while Phoenix would not have volunteered information about this, wouldn't talking about his college years have brought up a similar reaction? Yet Edgeworth says"Whenever you came up in our conversation, he would begin to act a little... strange." There is no reference to having noticed anything prior in Phoenix's behavior and had he noticed Phoenix was behaving strangely why wouldn't he have tried to find out why earlier? Why is it that Edgeworth seems to have no idea about Phoenix's past after they are friends again? Edgeworth admits that he never knew about 3-1 and only finds out about the case because he goes back to the department to find out why he knows Iris. Iris leads him to Dahlia and Dahlia leads him to Phoenix. It never occurred him to ask about Phoenix's past? Why? While getting to know his old friend again, wouldn't this be one of the first things you would talk about particularly after fifteen years? Besides, college is a really common starting point for those kind of discussions. This would either mean that they really aren't particularly close or Edgeworth couldn't tell either while Phoenix was well enough to hide it.

And again, I point out that Iris had a lot more on her mind at the time of their discussion, while Edgeworth had little on his mind at the hospital. As for knowing how to fix it, Edgeworth ran from his demons for a long time and finally learned the hard way that the best way to deal with them is to face them head on. His knowledge on how to fix it is from experience, not instinct. In 1-5, Edgeworth states "No matter how tragic the truth may be,it would be an even greater tragedy... to avert one's eyes from it." While this case wasn't apart of the original games, it is clearly how he feels by this point. He says something similar at the end of 2-4 about how he and Phoenix are there to find the truth. From his own experience, he knows well that you can run from your problems, but you can never escape them that way. Although this is a lesson Iris has yet to learn, she does learn it by the end of this case and Edgeworth certainly wasn't working any special understanding of Phoenix. His belief is that the best way to handle any problem, is to face it. That is simply his personality by this point. Iris firmly believed she was doing what was best for Phoenix. Being wrong does change what her motivation was.

First, Edgeworth agrees to come back only after hearing from an almost incoherent Larry that Phoenix may be dead. When Larry says that he was simply hurt, Edgeworth brushes it off and almost hangs up the phone, but dead is on a whole different level. As I said, Larry is making no sense. After Edgeworth demands to know what Larry means by Phoenix may be dead, Larry goes off about Iris (Who Edgeworth doesn't know and doesn't give him any answers). Realizing he wasn't going to get any answers from Larry, he decides he needs to go back. They are friends and if I heard that one of my friends (even if we weren't that close anymore) was near death or was dead, you better believe I'd go see them.

Most of the coversation between Larry and Edgeworth:
Edgeworth: ...Huh? Larry...? Do you know what time it is?
Butz: It's not "Larry"! It's "Laurice"! Laurice Deauxnim!
Edgeworth: (... This is nothing more than a terrible nightmare... I'll just roll over and...)
Butz: W-Wait! Don't hang up! ...It's an emergency! It's Nick! H-He... He took a really nasty spill!
Edgeworth: Well, it wouldn't be the first time, so...
Butz: I'm not joking! His life is in danger!
Edgeworth: Wh-What...!? What happened!? Tell me!
Butz: Talk about a guy with bad luck! He may already be dead! Anyway, you've got to come back! You're the only one that can help! My Iris... My beautiful Iris! She needs help...!
Edgeworth: Alright. I don't know what's going on, but... I'll be there as soon as I can.
Butz: I-I'm at the detention center! Please! Hurryyyyyy!

When Phoenix is simply hurt, Edgeworth is ready to go back to sleep. He can call and check on him in the morning, but Larry then says that Phoenix's life is in danger and then goes off on a tangent instead of answering the question. Edgeworth does remember what Larry is like (you can see that as early as 1-4) and therefore when Larry gets really off topic, he gives up trying to get those answers out of him because he knows its a waste of time. He does agree to defend Iris in Phoenix's place depite the risk, but think about what Phoenix has done for him in the past. If we include 1-5, Phoenix has solved two huge mysteries which had been haunting him for years (particularly the belief that he had killed his own father) and finally brings his father's real killer to justice. Phoenix shows him the error of his ways and helps him start down the path of rediscovery which allows him to really move on with his life and become the person we see by the second and third games. These are no small things and they were very tough on Phoenix. Now the situation has been reversed and it is Phoenix who needs help defeating his demons. If after all Phoenix did for him and after seeing him sick in the hospital, he could have simply turned around and gone back to Europe, I would have lost all respect for him. I can't imagine a colder, more horrible response after all Phoenix has done for him. At the very least, he's repaying a debt and being a good friend. Edgeworth is his friend and does care about him, it just doesn't seem to extend beyond that.

No problem and thank you.

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Last edited by Mia_Fey on Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

@musouka: Every nuance of a character's personality cannot be traced to canon. I am postulating and so are you. The game deliberately left these things vague. I thought theory was half the fun of this debate. If everything could be traced to canon, there would be no point in holding a debate. We might as well just put up transcripts from the game and say, "Summarize what this says about..." In conclusion, I propose that we end this war and let the readers decide who's right.

@Quizer: Your point about friction is taken and in spite of how it may look, I am basically in agreement with you. I take issue, however, with your reference to people's knowledge of their sexualities. Using an assumed agreement between "everyone" to lend weight to a statement is a dishonest tactic known as the "bandwagon" approach. Furthermore, that statement has the taint of invective, which has no place here. I would like to consider you a friend. Please don't make this difficult for me to keep doing.

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whos in cantfakethefunk's sig and avy?
and i like the / pair

Mia_Fey, thank you for the response. I'll have to come back with my reply at a later time, since I'm sort of pressed for it today.



No, I agree that every nuance can't be traced to canon and that you need to postulate in a debate like this. The issue is, however, that your arguements need to be backed by canon. I really try to point to canon instances that I think bolster my points when I'm debating, because otherwise it just becomes a matter of "I think this" and "Well, I think this". Think of canon as the hard data you need to back your points. Just as you wouldn't enter a structured debate on global warming carrying nothing but your own unresearched opinions, I think a less formal online debate without a canon basis is ultimately frustrating and pointless.

If you can point out a reason why you think Phoenix would take Iris's advice above that of his friends because of the way she phrases things--to use a hypothetical, let's say there's an instance when Maya gives him good advice that he ignores because he doesn't like the way its framed--then you have backed up your opinion with something concrete from the games themselves.

Likewise, me saying that Phoenix changed majors to save Edgeworth is a fact. It's stated by Phoenix in the third game. In the first game, Maya asks if he became a lawyer "to meet Edgeworth" and Phoenix confirms it. Now, my opinion on the evolution of their relationship is a postulation, but its spun from their interaction on screen.

(I do realize that's only one way to look at a relationship. MSoB, for example, is more fond of imagining how different personalities would mesh and play off one another, even if they've never actually met in canon. I just don't think you can really debate those types of couples--you either like them or you don't. I, jokingly, profess to like Klavier/Franziska, but I can't really debate its validity. It has none.)

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Alright. I have one HUUUUUGE problem with what you're saying right here, Ms. Mia Fey. Not trying to insult you, but I see one thing you probably overlooked. I know that it may not be my place to interupt this debate, but I must bring this to your attention.


You say that Edgeworth didn't really care that much when Phoenix was just hurt, correct? However, and I quote, you also said that "Edgeworth does remember what Larry is like." That is very, very, true, but it is also what undoes most of your entire point on this matter (Only the part I quoted, not everything else). If Edgeworth remebers what Larry is like, then he will also remember that Larry has a tendency to overreact to things. Just look at every time a girl has ever broken up with him. When Larry says that Phoenix is hurt, he could be talking about a lot of different things, therefore, since Edgeworth knows Larry's tendencies, he assumes it can wait until morning. And let's not forget that Larry doesn't even say the word "hurt." But when Larry says "dead," it really resounds with Edgeworth becuase he knows that not even Larry would not kid about something as serious as death. Ergo (Wohoo! I got to use that word!), he comes to the U.S. to check on Phoenix.

I thank you for listening to me. I hope I did not sound terribly arrogant or rude. If I did, I apoligize, and ask that you not get extremely mad at me.

That comment wasn't meant to step on any toes. Sorry if it came across that way. I think we've established a pretty good standard of debate on these boards where it is about the arguments and not about the people involved. If in doubt, it's usually safe to assume that a given statement is not meant as an attack.

Also, I wasn't aware I was breaking any unspoken rules of debate. I was merely trying to draw a parallel, a bold one to be certain, but but one that I believe has some merit in this case, as you yourself seem to agree.


I think it is possible to debate these pairings. We may not have any interaction of the characters from canon to base our opinions on, but based on what we know about the characters themselves and how they interact with others, we can form approximations of how they'd behave.

Like the host of evidence available on the subject of global warming (since you brought that up ;) ), the canon material in Phoenix Wright can be interpreted in various different ways, and people usually will try to interpret it in a way that helps their cause or supports their views. It may be frustrating in the former example, because nothing actually gets accomplished or no decision reached, but in our case, each person is free to keep his own opinions and views on the characters and write fanfiction based on them. As this spawns a wider array of fanfic, I don't see anything wrong with it. :)

I for one am not here because I expect to convince anyone with my arguments or sway more people to support the pairings I like. I'm mostly just putting my views and opinions out there to see if others share them or what others think of them. I'm not accusing anyone of a more aggressive agenda, but I think this is a good productive way to approach these debates. I'm looking forward to seeing more of other people's interpretations. Maybe it will give me new insights in some of the cast or events of the games.


Quizer

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Of course I'm not mad. A friendly debate can be quite fun and I don't mind responding. I am a little confused though as I don't quite see the contradiction in my theory. First, I didn't say that Edgeworth didn't care that Phoenix was hurt, but he certainly wasn't jumping on a plane and flying back at that point because he can in fact call in the morning to find what happened. I also agree that Edgeworth knows that Larry would not say Phoenix was dead without actually believing it which is why he comes to check on Phoenix as a real friend would. My point was that the act of coming back was not an act of great romance, but a worried friend wanting to make sure that his friend was okay. Larry's all over the place and Edgeworth knows well that when Larry's like this he isn't going to get any answers, so he opts to come back instead of wasting time trying to drag it out of Larry and check on Phoenix (He's never been noticeably strapped for cash after all, so the money would have been worth it to make find out what had happened). I hate quoting myself, but I did say as much.

I'd like to address your concern, but I'm having trouble seeing the problem. I apologize. Perhaps you could clarify for me.

@musouka- No rush. I can certainly wait. I have some homework I should get to work on anyway. I look forward to your response.

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Hence why there was a short Kristoph/Viola debate here. And speaking of which, maybe someone should make a debate thread for GS4 pairings in the Prosecutor's Lobby... Also, I'd love to start a debate of Furio x Franziska... but I simply don't have any grounds, crack pairings are slightly harder to debate about.



Agreed. I'm simply here because I like to debate... or watching debates going on for all that matter, although I'm not the one to start debates though. Usually I just watch (or in this case) read what other people debate, and side with the one I agree with most of all. :P

..Back on topic?

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@Mia_Fey: What I'm trying to say is that even though Edgeworth does not seem to care that much about Phoenix when he was only known to be "hurt," it doesn't mean that there could not be something between the two. If it was 3 AM, and one of my friends was hurt, and I was told they were hurt by a person who tends to overreact, I would probably go back to sleep and find out what happened in the morning. However, almost dead is a totally different story.

(I know what made it unclear. Me saying "yor whole argument falls apart." It doesn't, but I'm just clarifying that there could still be something between Phoenix and Edgeworth despite what you've said. So, what've you said there, while helping you suport FeenRis, doesn't really do that much in the way of hurting Mu's argument. That's all I'm trying to say. I apoligize for being unclear. I was a bit hyper from soda, and excited to boot. I hope it is clearer now.)

Oh, I don't know. If the claim is that he comes running back because he's in love Phoenix, then I would think that "Phoenix is hurt" should warrant more than a "it happens" kind of response when Edgeworth hears it. Considering Larry does tend to overreact, his first comments may not have made Edgeworth jump up and come back immediately, but he doesn't even show any curiosity until Larry tells him Phoenix may be dead. I absolutely agree that this comment is clearly on a different level then "he's hurt" and it does cause Edgeworth to react instantly, but up until this point whatever had happened could wait until tomorrow. He doesn't even ask for details at the beginning, just "Well, it wouldn't be the first time, so..." (as he tries to get Larry off the phone). This just doesn't ring of love to me, although I do see friendship here. Because even Larry wouldn't make up stuff about Phoenix being dead, Edgeworth comes back so he can get a real answer and see if his friend is okay. Does that help clarify my point?

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Yes, I see where you're coming from now. (Boy, this is fun! I haven't had this much fun in a debate in ages!) Now, to the debating!

As you said, Edgeworth knows he isn't going to get a clear answer from Larry while he's in such a state. Therefore, he didn't think to ask more from Larry until the word "dead" came into play. Now, I know that you'll ask "Why did Edgeworth ask for Larry to tell him more when he said dead, and not before?" The answer is relatively simple. If one of friends called me up and told me one of my other friends was dying (Even if the first friend was a Larry), the first words out of my mouth would be "What happened?!"

In summary:
Edgeworth did not think to question Larry (Or even get slightly upset, since there was really nothing he could do about it at the time. Again, note that Larry tends to overreact. Perhaps Edgeworth thought it was nothing worth worrying over.) when he only implied "hurt" becuase he did not expect a straight answer from such a distressed idiot. It was also very late at night, and he wanted to get to sleep. Yet, Edgeworth panicked slightly when Larry said "dead," and asked for details. Any normal person would. Does that make sense?

I'm glad you're enjoying it. Okay, so your argument is that he doesn't ask for details the first time because he can't do anything anyways. Then I have to ask, why does he ask for details when he hears Phoenix is dead? Why not just tell Larry that he'd be there as soon as he could. Details still wouldn't help as he still can't do anything from where he is, but he demands them anyway. Why would he ask one time, and not the other time? It is true that one situation is more drastic, but details would not do him any good in either situation and continuing the conversation wastes precious time. He clearly believes Larry when he's told that Phoenix might be dead, so your theory would only work if he didn't ask the second time and waited to ask for details until he could help. After all, if the details only matter while he's in a position to help, then he has no reason to ask for them the second time. Again, details wouldn't do him any good in either situation as there was no way he could help from where he was. But he does try to ask for details the second time and only decides to come when Larry isn't making any sense. Okay, so your answer to that is that he panics, but he's rather controlled for someone who panicked even briefly. He doesn't waste long trying to drag information out of Larry. He asks only once before giving up on Larry and also, wouldn't the way Larry goes on about how Phoenix may already be dead (and wailing as he does) increase his panic and not decrease it? He calms down quickly for someone who was just told the love of his life is dead and he still has no idea what is going on. He is clearly in control the whole time and makes perfectly rational decisions at each turn. That doesn't sound like panic to me. Worry yes, panic no. Also, if he's in love with Phoenix, wouldn't he panic even just a bit at hearing that he'd been hurt and could possibly be in pain even if he couldn't help? Wouldn't he still want to know just what Larry meant by that? Again, if the relationship is just friendship, it all makes sense, but it doesn't if he's in love with Phoenix.

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Alright, let me focus on the second half of your post downwards.
Edgeworth is controlled, I shall give you that. But he did panic, however brifely. Or perhaps panic isn't the right word. Perhaps shocked is a better word? Here's proof:

He did panic. However, Edgeworth is one of those people who can take control of their feelings extremely quickly, and so he does becuase he knows he needs to make rational deicisions in such a situation. He quells the feelings of fear and worry inside of himself in order to do what he needs to. Also (In response to your "Also"), you musn't forget that it was 3 AM, and Edgeworth is not the kind of person to show such feelings openly, especially not to one such as Larry, who would easily tease him. It may have been instinct (The kind of person he is and the pain he's been through) that kept worry or panic at bay, or it may have been tiredness. I myself find it very hard to care very much about anything at 3 AM.

I don't particularly support either P/E or P/I, but I would point out that Larry doesn't say Phoenix was hurt; he says Phoenix "took a really nasty spill." Personally, the first image that pops into my head at that is Phoenix falling off his bike and breaking a wrist or something; not exactly panic-inducing. Not a big deal, but the phrasing does make it more reasonable that Edgeworth wouldn't inquire further -- I would never think that "took a really nasty spill" meant "fell off a bridge into a raging river." Combine that with Larry's tendency to overreact and there you have it.