I've been trying to figure out what was intrinsicly wrong about your line of reasoning, and I think I finally have it. You say Daryan did not get his own fair trial. But that's not true! We know from the 3rd game that when you find the true killer, they are sent off to their own trial. The not guilty for your client does not automatically result in a guilty for the other criminal. True, it always seems to end up that way, but really what both Apollo and Phoenix have done by the end of the trial is point out a new suspect and have them arrested to be put on trial. But they then get their own trial with their own defense attorney. We assume that they all are found guilty (and they most likely are; after all they are guilty) but they are recieving the same treatment as the person Apollo or Phoenix were defending.

Also, your objection to the jury system is that it can't exist in a world where people are presumed guilty. But I think you need to (I apologize for using this phrase) turn things around. I believe the point the game is making is that the jury system is necessary to create a system where people are innocent until proven guilty. Personally, that's where I feel the series is ultimately headed: towards a total reform of the justice system. The jury system is probably the start of something much bigger. Wouldn't that make for an interesting conclusion to the AA series? I don't think that this is giving off a vibe of questionable morals. It seems that everything may eventually be heading in a much more positive direction.

As for the MASON system, I really want to examine the dialogue there more closely. It bugged me at first, but I'm beginning to think that the "time travelling evidence" may not have been as poorly thought out as I had originally believed. As soon as I have time I will investigate this more thoroughly.

Right, that may be the case.

In that case, they had more than enough evidence to consider Daryan a primary suspect, Machi could NOT have done it, and that trial should have been done with.

Hell, they STILL didn't need to whine about being unable to get Daryan without witness testimony... last I checked, witness testimony is considered evidence. Sure, Machi would have to admit to his own crime, but so did Adrian, so did "Iris," so did Armstrong, etc.

---

Now I didn't get the chance to read ALL of it(I will though.), but I have to say, I liked Hobo Phoenix better. He had an incredible life change after that case seven years ago, I wouldn't expect him to be the same. He is more confident and yet, more "evil" than he was. He knew Kristoph was a killer and had to forge that evidence to prove him guilty.

Also, the MASON system was unexpected on my opinion. I think the reason why you get the nail polish from the present and present it in the past is because you would have to "obtain" in somehow. Maybe if the nail polish was on the Court Record in the beginning of the Mason system, players would be like, "Why is nail polish here??". So the writers made you "Obtain" it even though Phoenix already knew.

...Let me read the rest of your reason and I'll get back to you...

Out of topic, I LOVE how your sig looks CFTF!

...I killed my seriousness...
EDIT: I also like the new Phoenix because of his attitude of seriousness and calm and funny at the same time. I like his jokes...Even if they are not funny.

EDIT 2: I wonder, why couldnt Nail Polish be in the past? Maybe its because there was no place to put it? Wait...What about Vera's house? Well...Hm...I need more thought into this.

Edit 3: Maybe the Nail Polish is in Kristoph's cell is because the writers want the players to alternate between past and present for a new experience? And not make players just finish the past without going to the present for more investigating.

Edit4: Um...So no replies??

---

I suppose I should point out another thing too. The Law is always corrupt to some degree. Here in AJ, the law system is shown to be good and bad. Good as it covers the bases and that everyone is considered a suspect. Bad as no one is ever innocent unless proven otherwise. That's the fundamental flaw of it. I suppose Phoenix had learnt that the hard way after all this time fighting for what he believes was right.

I'll also leave a question for you to ponder about. What do you believe is right and wrong based on this game then? The answer may surprise you.

This.

I thought it was lame how they revealed Kristoph's evil intentions in the first case. They should have given him some character development, give you time to get attached to him, and THEN hit you in the face with "OMG HE'S EVIIIIIL".

You're overestimating your ability to come to the truth.
The point is not that they'll "get away with their crimes" if we don't forge evidence. The point is that you cannot be sure that the accused did indeed commit the crime without sufficient proof. Saying "it probably happened that way" is not enough to potentially convict an innocent person. "Common sense" is not enough to convict a potentially innocent person. You have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. And it is because I feel that it is a far greater crime to force an innocent to undergo punishment than to allow a criminal to walk free that I can make this contention.

You need to realize that the truth is not so easy to come by, that your intuition, perfectly serviceable on a day-to-day basis, is far from rigorous enough to claim unchallengeable proof. Criminals aren't getting off on a "technicality" - they're getting off because there is still doubt that they are actually guilty.

Justice is served far less when an innocent is put in prison than when a murderer walks scot-free.



No doubt that PW world's "guilty until proven innocent for the player's clients" is screwed up, (and, incidentally, the only reason why I consider selecting not guilty after 4-4 a moral option. Ideally, we'd have an option to release both Vera and Kristoph because the evidence for both was inconclusive, but it's clear that the evidence leans in one direction more than another, if we absolutely have to convict someone), but that's a separate issue from forging evidence because you're so absolutely sure that your intuition is correct, even though by definition (because you can't prove it in a court of law) you don't have a reasonable basis for believing it.

From the perspective of the jury, Kristoph's guilt was far from established, and without the note in his possession (why did he give it back, anyway?). they have no reason to believe that Phoenix was telling the truth, especially given his history of evidence forging and his personal vendetta against Kristoph.


Explain how you know who the real killer is if you can't prove it except with fake evidence.

^

This.

---

Totally agreed. It's kind of weird for them to consider it's broken because...justice was ALMOST missed? Gee, they're just figuring this out? This happens pretty much EVERY SINGLE CASE. I'm not sure exactly why they think a case where the same thing as usual happens is supposed to suddenly make us open our eyes (and besides, 2-4 came far closer to having justice not be done)

That would make more sense, but I think the problem in the first place was that they were trying to bring up problems with the justice system. We ALREADY KNOW it's screwed-up. It's screwed-up FOR OUR OWN ENJOYMENT. I don't care that it's screwed up. If I did, I would spend my time pondering the premise of every game; seriously, why does this yellow circle love dots and why are ghosts after him? Why is it so important for a frog to get to the other side of a road?

It's kind of like whenever a Star Trek series actually tries to give a realistic examination of the technobabble. One of the most infamous examples is "Threshold" (although that episode was bad for a WHOLE LOTTA REASONS, not just this). Agony Booth puts it best:
It's just like this game. Whether or not the justice system is, er, just, isn't important in the least. What is important is whether the game is fun. In my mind, the crucial mistake of this game was overthinking the justice aspect of Ace Attorney, which is usually the most ludicrous aspect of the games. The point of Ace Attorney was never really to explain how a justice system would be fair, but to make us have fun. I think it's terrific that Ace Attorney has used SOME phrases and concepts from actual law, even if they're often extremely flawed (just look at cross-examination). But for me, it's incidental to my enjoyment of the game. Certain aspects of the Ace Attorney series just weren't meant to be treated like a fair court.

So the mistake of the game was trying to give us an explanation for it in the first place, which resulting in a really anticlimactic end and the final choice being (as someone noted) just "Do you want to win the game?"

Someone mentioned this earlier, but recall that these trials are not what puts the villains in prison. We know from 3-2 and 3-5 that even after they confess they are put on trial separately. The point is still to prove your client's innocent and in the PW/AJ world, the only way to do that apparently is to find the real criminal, but there are steps in between the breakdown in court and being found guilty. They stand trial afterward for their apparent crimes. In 4-4, the jury was merely supposed to choose whether or not they believed Vera committed the crime and not whether or not they believed Kristoph was guilty. He would be put on trial at a later time if she was found not guilty. Reasonable doubt is a wonderful thing since apparently in the PW/AJ world, you're guilty until proven innocent.

Phoenix would have known which cards had been on that table as they had just been dealing with them, so when he sees the obvious contradiction of the wrong card on the table (and then after he sees the back particularly), he figures out what happened and takes action. The card had existed and after Kristoph's reactions both on the phone and in court confirm this for him (besides seven years of investigation into the forgery is nothing to scoff at), he goes ahead with his plan. He wasn't happy with doing so, but Kristoph had gotten away with his original crime for seven years and was close to slipping away from yet another one. Remember that Apollo doesn't receive that card until well into the trial. I agree it was unethical, but I also still hold that he didn't have many options if the truth was to come out. Kristoph had set him up yet again, but this time for murder and if he couldn't prove the possibility of a fourth person in that room, either he or Olga was going to pay for it.

Okay, I'm done here.

---

I don't think Kristoph set Phoenix up, at least not initially. In the trial, it seemed he had every intention to clear Phoenix's name, such as when he tells Apollo that it's important they win at the start. He really seems quite fine with pinning the crime on Olga and letting Phoenix go free. It's only after Phoenix tries to prove Kristoph did it that Kristoph tries to pin the crime on him.

That bottle covered with Phoenix's upside down prints wasn't an accident. Kristoph clearly switched the bottles on purpose and he knew well that those bottles belonged to Phoenix and that they would be covered with his prints because he ate dinner with him. If he hadn't planned to pin it on Phoenix, why not just get rid of the bottle altogether? Instead, he places incriminating (almost devastatingly so) by the body. He does seem to be willing to let Olga take the blame, but don't forget how important his reputation was to him. He sees an opening to maintain his reputation by passing the guilt to Olga instead of Phoenix (he couldn't have known she'd leave an opening like that) and he can always deal with Phoenix at a later time. Originally though, it does seem he planned to pin the crime on Phoenix until this other opportunity presented itself. As for telling Apollo that its important to win, what else is he going to say? We need to lose this so that man can never incriminate me? He has to say that particularly since they are friends. Remember that he isn't bothered by the bottle (he did know about it after all) and just tells Apollo to wait and see what happens. Apollo was completely reliant on Kristoph. Steering him wasn't difficult until Phoenix intervened and then things got very hard for Kristoph.

---

Last edited by Mia_Fey on Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

My biggest problems with the game:

1) Ema. Her character was totally spun around from 1-5, which I thought would be cool at first, but turned out to be atrocious. She could've not been in the game at all and I wouldn't have noticed.
2) Forensics. It was totally a monkey-see monkey-do mechanic. You used each of them once or twice, in specific situations, and they're never challenging, you just follow instructions. You couldn't run around spraying luminol on everything like you could in 1-5. It detracted from the overall experience of the game.
3) Klavier's interactions with other characters. Bad name, worse development. He was one-dimensional until the end of 4-4, but that wasn't enough to save his character to me. They really missed a great opportunity for dialogue between Kristoph, Klaiver, and Apollo in court during that case. I was imagining that it would be a dramatic, heartwrenching "I wanted to believe in you, brother!" type of case, perhaps where Klavier's morals could be twisted like Phoenix's to try to save his brother, but it turned out flaccid.
4) Phoenix Wright, a disbarred attorney, being put in charge of overhauling the entire justice system. This doesn't jive with me. It would've been the perfect excuse to reintroduce Edgeworth - after all, hasn't he been studying foreign justice systems? And Phoenix totally stole Apollo's thunder.
5) Hey, it turns out everyone is related! Yawn. Hasn't been an exciting plot device since the first Star Wars movie.
6) Perceive system - great idea, bad execution.
7) Apollo was totally replaceable. Just didn't care for the guy. Completely a clone of Phoenix, just with different hair and a louder voice.

What I liked:

1) Case 4-1. Fucking brilliant. Kristoph is the best character in this game. Mia Fey was the deus ex machina of the first 3 games, always appearing out of nowhere with the answer. Kristoph was the perfect way to surprise players and destroy their expectations.
2) Case 4-4's resolution. Kristoph's dramatic breakdown, compared to 4-1, puts a lot of perspective on his character. Getting defeated in court and sent to prison for life doesn't faze him, but having his entire conception of the justice system changed by Phoenix Wright completely destroys his composure. Unbelievably awesome, and a superb insight into Kristoph's character.
3) Actually... Kristoph was the only thing I liked about the game.
4) Actually, no. I really loved what they did with Phoenix. It put a more authentic spin on his character and I loved it.
5) The music rocked. Objection, the new Suspense theme, and Cornered are SO AWESOME. Guitar's Serenade sucked and was overplayed, which is my only complaint about the soundtrack.
6) Ambiguity was awesome. They never elucidated on who shot Thalassa. In fact, your only confirmation that Valant didn't shoot Magnifi was his own admission and his lack of psyche locks. Valant's character art really showed how much he suffered.

Last edited by Whodi on Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Not really. He was a lot less sarcastic than Phoenix and actually seemed a little more serious about everything. He's still darn similar to Phoenix, but I definitely wouldn't call him a clone.

Though it did bug the heck out of me that his failed objections have the exact same lines as Phoenix's. When you played as Edgeworth or Mia, you got different ones (Edgeworth's crack me up...). It's a small thing, but I think they should've changed them at least a little.

Apollo was different than Phoenix. Yeah, they got plenty in common, but with the current road Nick is on, some seriousness is probably in order.
Polly is quite a bit more high strung than Nick used to be, and definitely more fiery...

---

Thank you Funk^-^, I will give a link here as soon as I finish the translation work.

______________________


That's all for now, I think.Terribly sorry if it's hard to read.

---

I was disappointed as well. The game felt easy and wasn't as funny as the previous PW games.

My biggest complaint is that they transitioned from GBA to DS but nothing really changed. In fact, it feels like they removed features. Psychelocks, presenting profiles versus perceive and investigation tools isn't much of a trade.

I do disagree with a couple of your character assessments, though. I thought hobo Nick was okay, but that Mason system thing was stupid.
I liked Trucy, but I thought they were way too similar to Maya and Phoenix. They didn't even give Apollo his own flavor text when you presented wrong evidence, they just copied Nick's.
Klavier was sort of meh, but to me they won't ever have a more awesome prosecutor than Godot.

Hey there. Long time lurker, first time poster. Let's see if I can gather my thoughts and wrap them up in a neat little post. If tl;dr, well... my apologies.

If one thing is clear, it's that the judicial system in the world of Phoenix Wright is absolutely haywire. Demon prosecutors, forged evidence, insane witness testimony, lack of judge's patience, it all rests in the hands of the defense to prove their client innocent when all the odds are against them.

Which is, of course, why we love Phoenix. He is the proverbial hero to us. As ridiculous and unfair as the court gets sometimes, Phoenix does his best to get his clients off of the charges presented. But one thing that is clear to me, in at least for the Phoenix trilogy, is that Phoenix doesn't work alone. He's just one part of the team. Maya, Mia, Pearl, Edgeworth, Gumshoe, Butz, Andrews, Powers, etc. all work with Phoenix in their own way to help him build the appropriate case. Part of why 3-5 is so great is that Franziska, who has been so resistant about joining Team Phoenix, realizes that maybe being part of the team isn't so bad. The end result is that, it's the team that is full of heroes, and individual members of the team cannot work alone. The team of heroes works it so that genuinely bad people, von Karma, Engarde, Dahlia, eventually get their comeuppance at the hands of the team. And as such, we like Team Phoenix. We grow to like their little idiosyncrasies and mannerisms; trains of thought, and viewpoints. It's all forgivable since, in the end, we know that they're out to do good.

Suffice it to say, Apollo Justice fails to meet the standard that we've been accustomed to, mostly because there's no team. I'm still shocked at the lack of returning characters. Considering how much effort went into building the dramatis personae for the Phoenix trilogy, it's kind of sad to see so few return. Without that overarching team to unite characters together, we have to judge characters on their individual merits. Suffice it to say, they don't have very many.

First is Apollo himself. Of course we like Apollo. What's not to like? He's the good guy; defending the now fallen Phoenix, a mafia prince who's in over his head, a 14-year old blind boy who can't speak English, and a 19-year old agoraphobic girl artist. It's practically shoved down our throat. Unlike Phoenix, defending those who can't defend themselves; Apollo is helping those who can't help themselves. So of course we're going to like Apollo.

Trucy's character is just a reskinned Maya. But since we are unfamiliar with this "Trucy" character, her likability is directly connected to the fallen Phoenix and not that her predecessor, Maya. More on Phoenix later.

Then comes Klavier, whom I affectionately call "The Klav", since it sounds like "The Clap". He is a very boring prosecutor. In a game that depends on its character development, this is absolutely murder. Whereas Edgeworth, Franziska, and Godot all serve as points of conflict for Phoenix, I can honestly say I don't know what The Klav's purpose is. Is he an asshole because he gets Phoenix disbarred? Is he a good guy because he seeks the truth and is able to sell his evil brother out? Is he a jerk because he calls Apollo "Herr Forehead"? He's all over the map, and isn't very good at resonating back what Apollo gives him. He's very "blah" at best, and that makes him a very poorly developed character. Yay. Prosecutor by day, J-pop rock star by night. -fingertwirl-

Kristoph is developed at least, and is a bit of an interesting villain. He's about on level with von Karma and Engarde in terms of vileness. The problem being is that, and is a common theme through AJ, these characters are heavily pushed onto us. Right from the first case, we are told that Kristoph is not a good person. What's to like? He kills two people, frames another, forges evidence, he's just filled with all kinds of evil villainy, isn't he?

Which brings us to the fallen hero, Phoenix. Ironically enough, Phoenix winds up being the most developed character in the game. The suddenly noble Wright has fallen from grace, where he even admits it. The punch from Apollo is what was going through all of our heads. Is what he did a good thing? Has justice for the people really been served? These are the kinds of questions Phoenix is making us ask, moral questions of depth that would boggle the greatest of philosophers. I don't see the other characters in the game doing that. Maybe I'm not trying hard enough, but I don't see the moral dilemmas being raised by The Klav.

Regarding some other things:

As far as the cases go, I don't know how forgiving I can be of the plot holes this time around. Ace Attorney has always had its fair share of plot holes, but AJ takes the cake for some of these. They're really huge and ridiculous, some of which have already been pointed out in this thread.

The soundtrack was amazingly mediocre as well. In a game that's known for being over the top, the soundtrack was just too subtle. It's out of place. Perhaps my expectations were just too high, since 3's soundtrack was composed by one of my favorites, Noriyuki Iwadare (Langrisser and Grandia fame, also did work on the upcoming Brawl soundtrack).

So yeah, I'm kind of let down by AJ. They opted to introduce a new cast, and so few of those characters are interesting. And nothing else about the game stands out to overshadow the mediocrity.

WARNING! Long Post!
I understand your explantions; in truth, I thought there was alot of dubious factors in game myself. And I wholeheartly agree with many of you character descriptions, especially Klavier... But I also think you should try looking outside the box in terms of some of your deeper points about the game. The "fictional" PW/AA games, although translated to fit American consumers, are still based off Japan's court system, not the Western world's. Considering the fact that this game is originally set in Japan and that translation might have had a bit too much trouble trying to figure out all the loose ends on their own, perhaps we should be a bit more lenient? Although hardly an expert, I know from personal experience and research that Asian courts are a lot different from the ones found in the U.S. I am a native Korean who knows that compared to America, Korea's court system is very lacking, and my Japanese friends say the same thing on their litigation system. Both of our courts are a joke. Take these factors into consideration, and maybe you'll understand a bit more.
Japan and its law system is supposed to be the leading legal influence in Asia in terms of court...Yet human rights organizations have long critized the way the system actually applies itself.


Lets try putting all these against the defense attorney/suspect in the series. Now, if the attorney knows his or her client is not guilty(via Psychelocks or Perception since both exceptional powers allow a person to know 100% that someone is lying)...and they also know another person is guilty, what happens then? The moral struggle become much more muddier. When law and evidence do not work for the innocent, what other choices, if any, are left? The judge in the game himself declares that the current court system isn't working. Maybe taking that into consideration might make Phoenix look less of a bad guy. And besides, it is easier to be negative when one compares the game on the grounds of Western law...In reality, not all countries are as lucky as the Western civilization. Japan, South Korea, China...if the most modernized/industrialized of the Asian countries have bad court systems, what about the rest of the Asia? What about Iraq and the Mid-Eastern countries? Innocent until proven guilty? Not a guaranteed right in the world, my friend.

Now, Japan has been aware of its problems. In order for reform, Japan introduced movement for a jury in certain trials in 2009. The new system for Japan allows a jury consisting of three law-trained judges and six citizens chosen by lottery, who will decide criminal cases by majority vote. The problem is that the motion is pending because the common citizen has to be convinced that the jury system is advantageous or else it will be pulled off by 2012.

It made me laugh that there is this much political commentary on this game(at least for the Japanese) since you can see the obvious analogy but I believe Matsukawa was trying to make the game fun as well as somewhat meaningful. Her focus on 'feeling' in the game, in my opinion, is the power of the feelings/thinking of the common people, that the way the common people of AJ perceive this case, under guidance of the Mason system can become the path to true justice. I don't think it is meant to forgo law and evidence...the Mason system was the evidence, and hopefully the judge informed the jury of the law. In the same way, perhaps Matsukawa wanted the Japanese people to know that by working as juries under the guidance of the three judges, they might be able to bring justice as well.

The Mason system is, of course, skeptical in the sense that it is much too convenient. But I don't think it was intended to point towards Phoenix's further forging of evidence. Perhaps I'll ask Matsukawa as my question to her in that signed PW merchandise event, haha.

Anyways, I hope this sheds some new light on the more negative sides of AJ.

Last edited by DakTuh on Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:47 am, edited 2 times in total.

Seriously, WTF is with these people with 1 post posting in this topic? I'm starting to think that they are 1 person. :/

---

Maybe we played AJ and liked/disliked it enough to come out of hiding?

I'm mostly talkin about the hate posts though.

---

QFT. This isn't the first time Capcom's pulled something like this, either.

Megaman started out as a series about a heroic little blue robot who went around blowing up the evil robots built by a crazy evil scientist. Not exactly the video game version of Lord of the Rings as far as story goes, sure, but it worked. Then we get the X series, where Megaman is still blowing up the evil robots, but at the same time he's going around being all emo and bitching about "Why do I have to fight? What does violence solve? Why can't we all just get along? Robots have feelings toooooooooo!" Yeah, we can't settle our differences with the maverick robots diplomatically because that's boring and not the point of the game.

---

I don't hate the game. I just find it mediocre and disappointing as compared to its three predecessors.

To put it another way; after each previous Ace Attorney game, I immediately replayed all of the cases (save for 2-3). I have yet to pick back up AA4, and I don't think I will.

The only part of the game that I really, really didn't like was the Mason System. It was boring, full of plot-holes, a terrible replacement for a proper investigation phase, and made case 4 feel way too short as a whole - though that may be due to the ridiculously short and easy trial phase afterwards. The other three final cases (1-4, not 1-5) took me longer and seemed much more satisfying.

As far as characters are concerned, my biggest disappointment was Kristoph. He did not get enough character development as a villain and his motives seem humorously shallow. Really, Phoenix really didn't seem all that different to me. In particular, I didn't see him as out of character at all in the flashback case. With the other prosecutors, Phoenix had a reason to be intimidated - Edgeworth was his childhood-friend-turned-devil-prosecutor, Manfred was the man who trained Edgeworth, Franziska was that man's daughter and a child prodigy, and Godot was a smug bastard who came "back from the dead" just to take revenge on Phoenix. On the other hand, Klavier was... seventeen, a rock star, and acted like an amateur. He thought of Klavier with the same sarcasm and humor we're accustomed to hearing in his head when he's dealing with such flamboyant characters.

Was I the only one who enjoyed Ema? Her personality was a pretty big 360 from her happy teenage personality, but I found her to be funny and you could see her old enthusiasm in her when science came in to play. She was probably one of my favorite characters in the game.

Trucy... just didn't have that big of an impact on me. When you first meet Maya, her big sister/your mentor has just died and she's the prime suspect. She shows emotion and it makes you feel for her. That kind of introduction to her character made an impact right from the get-go. On the other hand, Trucy just seems to kind of come out of the woodwork (oh hi I'm Phoenix's daughter by the way I'm going to follow you around and annoy you from now on ok cool) and I ended up just "accepting" that she was there. Perhaps the team at Capcom figured it should logically follow by now that in the Ace Attorney world every hot-blooded young lawyer needs a perky teenage girl at his side, but over here in reality we'd rather have some kind of reason that we should care about that girl. I think they tried to compensate for this with the half-sister revelation in case 4, but I didn't really *feel it* at that point.

Backing out of the game itself, I want to comment on the localization. Most notably, the pop culture references and humor have been toned down - undoubtedly due to the return of Alexander O. Smith as the lead translator. I felt the pop culture references and humor in the second and third games were a bit forced and out-of-place, so I'm glad this game went back to AA1 levels of comedy. The names are pun-tastic as always, though I noticed they kept some names rather similar to the Japanese original this time around, especially in case 3 (Kirihito/Kyouya Garyuu to Kristoph/Klavier Gavin, keeping the last name of Kitaki, Daian to Daryan, Maki to Machi, etc.).

Right now I'd rate AJ above JFA, but below AA and T&T (T&T being my personal favorite). It's obvious they're planning to flesh out the plot and characters a bit more with sequels, but some things like the Mason System screwups just can't be corrected.

I've said some of this over on LJ, but this discussion is interesting, so I'll repeat myself.

First, I really didn't like the Mason System either -- it broke the fourth wall, badly. It did it so much, though, that I did chalk up a lot of the plot holes in 4-4 to the system, and not to Phoenix, so I'm a little less grumpy than many.

My real feeling while playing 4-1 (and it wasn't changed afterwards) is that Phoenix is deliberately playing the role of the "bad witness", and he expects ALL of what he did (including faking the card) to come out in court, because he trusts Apollo. If it had, then it's Phoenix-the-witness tampering with the crime scene rather than Apollo-the-lawyer using forged evidence, by somewhat screwy logic. It doesn't all come out in court, though, and neither the game nor Apollo call him on it enough.

And on 4-4 -- again, I'm willing to take the Mason System as a storytelling shortcut, and give Phoenix the benefit of the doubt on the investigation really being done properly. That's a big assumption, but it made the game fun rather than annoying. I also didn't have a problem with flashback-Phoenix's cockiness in court -- he was a lot like that in the end of T&T, especially in 3-3 (where it wasn't personal). That felt like Phoenix through-and-through, and if he'd lost fairly (and then Zak had pulled his disappearing act), it would have been his just desserts for being a little overconfident, but not out-of-character.

I really, really liked Klavier and the sympathetic-prosecutor gig. I thought it was a really nice change, and I didn't think it made things too easy. (Honestly, I've found all of the games to be pretty easy.) I think 4-3 was probably my favorite case because of him. And the way they did introduce challenge into the scenes where he's being helpful also played into the "justice-system-is-broken" theme -- Klavier keeps saying, in essence "oh, Apollo, you're right, you've convinced me, but sadly you don't have the exact right piece of evidence so sorry too bad". And then Apollo freaks out for a few minutes and fishes out the exact right piece of evidence.

Um, the only thing that bugged me was the final case only lasted 3 days. :(

How is that playing into the "justice system is broken" at all? That should be Klavier's damn JOB. The job of the prosecution is to believe that the defendant is guilty and prove that. The job of the defense attorney is to believe that the defendant is innocent and prove that. If either of those falters then justice may not be served--if the defense attorney just accepts that his client is guilty, then they don't get a fair trial and what if they ARE innocent? If the prosecutor decides that the defendant is innocent... well, what if he's wrong? You just let the criminal off the hook.

If either of the two parties 'decides' the truth rather than finding it through opposition and evidence, justice is perverted. The fact that Klavier waited for evidence is a GOOD thing.

---

It's pretty common in my personal experience. I've seen it a lot when dubs of anime are first aired... message boards for that show will get hundreds of new users all posting about how bad it is.

Its kind of funny, because I liked AJ for a lot of the reasons everyone else seems to hate it. All contradictions and 'that's-not-how-the-law-works' aside, since I find talking about that for a PW game is beating a dead horse.

I loved Trucy. Now that everyone brings it up, I can see how she was a bit one dimensional, but she was cute and funny, and that's all she really needed to be. Although I have to admit, I was really hoping she'd get kidnapped or something, just for old times sake. She just got a fake one, though. XD

I didn't care for Apollo, though. He didn't really have the dumb charm Phoenix did, and I never could get over how young and geeky he looks.

I didn't find Klavier boring at all. In fact, I really did find the whole "I actually don't mind losing as long as the truth is found" refreshing. That's how a prosecutor SHOULD be, and its always been frustrating in the past watching the other prosecutors be all about competition. I liked Edgeworth because he actually seemed to care too... but back to Klavier. It really isn't all that strange that Klavier wasn't so passionate about getting his brother off the hook... if you look at their profiles you can see they're... 8 years apart, I think it was, so they probably weren't ever very close (despite looking exactly the same).

Ema... I have to agree with everyone on. I was kind of dissapointed in how annoying she became. On the other hand though, getting used to Ema just made me that more excited to cross examine Gumshoe in 4-4! I really liked all of the DS 'sciency' things. Yes, they were novel and pointless, but they were a fun, mindless little break from the usual mental strain PW games tend to take. Examining evidence was especially fun to see what kinds of comments Trucy and Apollo make.

The everyone's related plot twist was pretty lame, I won't defend that one. It did give me a good laugh, though, before I cried at least.

The MASON system... it had to be brought up. I actually thought it was a lot of fun. I was a bit disappointed you couldn't break those black psyche-locks though, I thought that was going to be really interesting. Oh well. The forth case was very anticlimactic, which was disappointing. I think the game could have been a million times better if there had been a fifth case like PW3.

The perceive system I liked a lot as well. It was such a pain in the butt to catch tiny nervous motions I got some emense satisfaction in catching them. I wish they didn't make it so obvious where to use it all the time, though. If they had taken out all the hints of which statement to use it on, and even better, let you use it any time at all like presenting or pressing, I think it would have been more effective.

I was glad they steared clear of having too many character cameos. As much as I loved Edgeworth and would have loved to find out what he was up to 7 years later, it wasn't necessary. I do however, think Maya should have had a cameo in the ending or something. I think after all we've put up with with that girl, the creators owed us that one.

And the first case was a truly epic first case. Kristoph being guilty never crossed my mind at all, like Godot in 3-5. I knew they would have to do away with Kristoph somehow... but I certainly didn't expect it to be done that way.

I can't possibly bash AJ too much, it has provided me with many a sleepless night, tons of laughs, and Trucy. (Seriously who wouldn't want to have a daughter like her?)

The first case was epic.. until the dangling plotlines get unresolved and shelved in "wait for next time okay guys be patient" mode. That was the first sign that the pacing in this game is sorely lacking compared to the last 3 games.

Also the fact that the last case is nowhere near as intense compared to the previous games, and the ending doesn't provide enough closure (for me, anyway). It's even more disappointing because I had such high hopes after Rise From the Ashes, which was an A++ case all around and didn't suffer from anything I pointed out in this post.

All in all, AJ had some underwhelming moments, but nowhere near a trainwreck as JFA case 1, which almost made me put down the game. I still love it, though.

Oh, I agree that requiring evidence is a good thing -- it's the attitude and the details of how he says it that I think played into the running theme -- those cases are at points where previous games would have called it "decisive evidence" long ago, as long as the Judge was convinced (and it's clear that the Judge is convinced as well). In essence, the old games allowed a witness breakdown (without a real confession) to serve as evidence -- Daryan does basically break on the stand and then keeps almost getting off the hook because of lack of evidence, despite a mounting pile of evidence that at least shows Machi couldn't have done it. (The fact that there's no way to declare the defendant not guilty without proving someone else's guilt right there is part of it too.)

How is Daryan's "PLEAASE DON'T TAAAAAAAAAALK" not EXACTLY THAT (breakdown without confession).

Witness testimony == Evidence.

And 1-1 or 1-2 has the judge mention how rare it is for Phoenix to prove his client innocent and find the real killer at the same time. Obviously his method is the exception to the rule; you don't need to find someone else guilty to prove your client innocent

---

If Hobo were another character; if Phoenix were not in this game, and this was Disgruntled McExLawyer #32 as Apollo's new boss... I'd find him interesting. I'd still find him a jerk with questionable ethics, but he'd be sort of compelling. But this is who they're trying to pass off as Phoenix Wright, and it doesn't work. He's one of the few characters in anything I genuinely dislike, he does some VERY shady things--and worse, he never gets called on them, never takes the blame.

In 4-1, he gives the forged Bloody Ace to Trucy to give to Apollo. Now, ignoring the fact that this is precisely how he lost his OWN badge, the fact that he's taking such a gamble with Apollo's career in his FIRST CASE is despicable in and of itself. But what's worse is that he uses that forged evidence. It's not the same as in 3-3 where he pretended the bottle was a bottle of poison and Tigre fell for it--there, he was gambling all on Tigre's oversight. If Tigre hadn't fallen for it, he'd have been sunk.

Kris recognizes it as a forgery, but he can't prove it--the only way to do so is to admit that he's the one who took it from the crime scene and is ergo the killer. The blood on the ace is used to prove which way the victim was seated, which is used to prove where the killer was standing, which proves that the dresser was moved, which proves that Kris couldn't have watched as he claimed and had to have been the killer. Was it right? Sure, because it's a game. But the fact of the matter is, the basis for Kris' conviction... was forged evidence. Kris had taken a card from the scene, yes. Was there blood on the original? Who's to say? It was a swivel chair, after all, and he was found facing the other way--maybe Kris moved the body before the blood could drip. Is it likely that there was blood? Probably. But it still doesn't change the fact that there was no way to know for certain, and Phoenix got a man convicted of murder with forged evidence.


But don't you see the beauty in the irony? Kris used forged evidence to ruin Phoenix's career so Phoenix did the same. Phoenix helping create Was it the right thing to do? not really. Was it satisfying? you bet it was! The Mason system is a bit iffy but its a beta version and not the official so of course its flawed. But all in all, He was trying to fix the broken ass legal system that screwed him and whole bunch of other people. And why not? Remember how he was treated him in the previous games? He was arrested and blame for murder on the flimsiest testimony ever, Prosecutors could hit him with whips, hot coffee, and raise the penalty whenever they feel like it... so basically this is his way of up yours to the legal system and his old buddy Klavier... Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if he gave Klavier the finger when he was lead away in hand cuffs and both fingers when he was carried away in a straight jacket.

To be fair though, Trucy and Maya's circumstances are different, and Trucy's younger and still a child really (Maya, I would say myself is closer to an adult.) After playing I got the idea Trucy lached onto Apollo as an older brother figure (Heh) because she knew he was working for her father and probably would stay. She was teasing him by calling him Polly, and yeah, he said stop, but it's still teasing. :P She's more childish than Maya which seems impossible.

The only problem I had with this game was Phoenix, not his character just what happened to him. Why throw a character most of us had liked and felt like that you were him as the games went trough his story and character, his fall came a mere months after PW3, which just felt.. sad.

The later half of case 4-4 could be better, but I did quite enjoy the MANSON system, must be one of the few. :P

---

You don't have to like Phoenix for his actions, but he does accept blame for his actions at the end and clearly feels guilty for them. He doesn't have to tell Apollo that he forged that piece of evidence (that Phoenix knew had to exist by the way so he wasn't creating evidence that had never been real), but he does anyway. Why? Because he wants Apollo to hit him. Phoenix angers him enough that Apollo snaps and strikes him. There is no shock and no anger when it happens. Only acceptance. Phoenix knew it and wanted it to happen. Besides, this teaches Apollo a valuable lesson about trust, does it not? Trust is great, but if things seem to be too perfect, perhaps he needs to think about things a bit more. Phoenix had to learn this lesson the hard way. Apollo doesn't.



Apollo is never in danger. Play 4-1 and 4-4 again. Phoenix losses his badge because he can't prove where the evidence came from and that he had nothing to do with the forging. Right when that bloody ace comes out in 4-1, Phoenix speaks up and claims the "evidence" as his. He tells the court that he took it and gave it to his daughter for safe keeping. Then it was given to Apollo. If the truth about that evidence comes out then Phoenix alone is going to pay for it because as we see in 4-4, the forged evidence is seen as a confession. If Phoenix "dirty little magician's trick" is discovered, Phoenix is going down for a murder he didn't commit. Also, Apollo doesn't take the case until the last minute, but unlike Phoenix who did the same thing, Apollo has two people to testify to this fact. The Judge even states that he's surprised to see that Kristoph isn't handling the case because he thought Kristoph was going to be doing so. Kristoph admits that he intended to, but the client then asked for Apollo. Apollo could never have conceivably forged anything because not only is it clear that the evidence came from Phoenix, Apollo didn't know until the last minute that he was handling that case. I'm not claiming his action was ethical as it clearly wasn't, but Apollo was never in danger. Phoenix made sure of that.



Kristoph committed the murder and proves it in Phoenix's mind by knowing things he couldn't know. He knew that the victim was bald, but the hat came off only when he was struck. Kristoph then calls the cards on the table blue because he thought they had been using the blue deck which was why he made that mistake with the cards that starts things off. Apollo does not get the forged card until after all this has happened. The ace is never decisive evidence. The card in the bottle that Kristoph switched is and the bloody ace most certainly doesn't point directly to anybody. It just shows that there had to be another person in that room, but not who was in the room. If Phoenix doesn't shows the possibility of a fourth person in the room, the only other options for who could be the killer are him and Olga. Neither of them is guilty, but if this new possibility is dismissed then one of them is going down for murder and Kristoph is going to walk away. Also, recall that the villains get their own trials as we know from 3-2 and 3-5. Kristoph is only being shown as the most likely person to have committed the crime, he's not being convicted here. The very fact that Kristoph calls the card out as a fake and knows the significance of it further proves his guilt. When he cries out that the card is a fake, Phoenix doesn't deny his claim. He just asks how Kristoph could possibly know. After all, the killer who took the original from the scene is the only one who could have known that card was a fake. Kristoph had two options which was to call out Phoenix and the fake evidence and admit his guilt, or try to outsmart Phoenix to try to escape it (Kristoph chooses the latter one). Phoenix was in a very bad situation and it left him with only a couple viable options. He didn't simply want to escape a guilty sentence for himself (which was hard enough anyway), he wanted to make sure an innocent woman didn't fall for a crime Phoenix knew she couldn't have committed and he wanted to find the real killer. You don't have to like him for what he did or forgive him, but he didn't have a lot of options.

---

Last edited by Mia_Fey on Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Psst! The first three paragraphs of Mysticgamer's post were quoted from the OP.

Oops! Sorry about that. It wasn't in the quotes, so I figured it was new stuff. I'm not going to erase what I wrote, but feel free to ignore my show of stupidity there.

---

I was thinking about the bloody ace: Yes, it was legally corrupt, but I can see who Phoenix was trying to protect: Not only himself, but Olga. Think about it: The ace was his insurance policy. Remember, he didn't have Trucy give Apollo the ace until the very end of the case during the recess. By that point, Apollo had essentially gotten Phoenix off the hook. But Phoenix objected, because he knew that in his place, Olga Orly would be accused of the murder, and he knew that she was innocent. It wasn't just a plot to get him off the hook and nail Kristoph-- he was also trying to protect Olga from being accused of a crime that he knew she didn't commit. Phoenix knew that an ace was missing and knew what happened, and he wasn't about to let Apollo inadvertently send an innocent woman to jail (and let a murderer walk free). Before we completely vilify Phoenix for breaking the rules, remember there was something much more important than law at stake. And, like Mia_Fey said, he more than expected and accepted Apollo socking him on the chin.

---

I'm too lazy and distant to be super-introspective here (or make my own topic, for that matter), but I'll tack on a point or two here about my deluded way of seeing this game.

From what I recall someone involved in the game (I forget if it was Takumi or someone else that deals with planning and such) stated in an interview before the Japanese release that AA4 was only given the green-light (by Capcom, I believe) if they did two things:

#1: Keep Phoenix Wright in the storyline
#2: Include XXXXXXXXXXXXX in storyline

While I'm fairly certain that Phoenix wasn't 'stuck in' (i.e. they didn't have to add Phoenix to an already existing plot), I can see why any inclusion of Phoenix Wright in AA4 is pretty strained; they have to give the guy a considerable part while having him somehow be less than the main character. This is a balance that is difficult to achieve (and, in many people's opinions, was never achieved).

Additionally, while I'm not sure if it was ever confirmed, I personally believe that "XXXXXXXXXXXXX" was referring to the Jurist System, which they obviously didn't want to give info about before the release of the game. Considering that New Jury Law, which has 3 Judges and 6 Jurists working together to decide the verdicts of high-penalty court cases, will be starting in Japan sometime between now and June 2009, I like to think of the OOC complaints about the unfairness of the AA law system to be a sort of propaganda move in order to make Japanese gamers more sympathetic to the real Japanese Jurist System. Whether this actually helped, I don't know, but the delusions of shadowy conspiracies do make my inner fanboy feel a bit better about the way things occurred.

If you wish to run with (or run a stake through) these thoughts please be my guest; I haven't really seen anyone bring up the second one before (probably because they're too sane to do so). Ah well. *goes back to lurking*

---

I really don't take much issue with the bloody ace, honestly. Phoenix didn't use it as "evidence": he just used it as bait to get Kristoph angry. He only really used it as evidence after Kristoph freaked out and basically revealed that he had destroyed the original evidence. Now, if Phoenix had removed an unbloodied ace from the scene himself, just so that he could make a bloody version to nail Kristoph with? Then I might find his actions out of character, even if Kristoph was still the real murderer.

But honestly, I don't agree with a single thing you said, CFTF, so I won't even go to the effort of copypasting the whole thing and typing up responses to every paragraph. >_>

What I'm trying to say is that the "standard" of the evidence required has always been flexible to game-logic, and that the Judge was the one that decided. In 4-3, we have a lot of evidence (including Daryan's initial breakdown without confession -- he snaps a couple of times before the final one), and Klavier keeps saying "no, need more evidence..." I think the final evidence is Machi's theoretical tell-all testimony (which we don't actually see), rather than Daryan's headbang.

I'd need a full script to actually be able to try to articulate this point better. I just got the impression that the way in which the end of 4-3 was dragged out was intended to highlight the "problems" that the Jurist system was supposed to fix. And having a sympathetic prosecutor just doing his job added to that, because he was so apologetic about it. I think the system is so broken that trying to point it out in-game really just breaks the fourth wall rather than being interesting, though.

Right, Phoenix's method may be an exception in the judge's eyes, but not in the players -- we only have the cases we see, after all. The court logic is screwed-up, but it has some form of consistency in the cases the player sees -- you have to prove the real killer to "win".