Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
Regarding the second point, that is not what I mean. I'm saying, how would PHOENIX be able to get the backstory that he apparently told "us" told to the jurists other than the MASON system?
Because a whole lot would happen with the jurists that we don't see. There'd be a [extremely boring to play] jurist session lasting a few days [?] where the jurists watch all the court proceedings on TV [we are explicitly told that the jurists watched everything which happened in court] and are given whatever boring informational materials as briefings. Ones which would be hopelessly boring as a game. Probably various things would happen in court detailing the cases before the defense attorney got there too.
And I don't think the entire backstory Phoenix gets to us with 4th-wall style breaking is ever related to the in-world jurists. It's only ever meant for the player, who is kind of acting like a pseudo 'jurist' concerning Phoenix's innocence of the forgery. Not the same as the in-game jurists who are totally separate from the player, except for that one moment at the end where the player gets to 'control' Thalassa.
Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Magnus Orion wrote:
Phoenix needs to be the one to get the Jurists that info in order to cover what plot point?
Whats wrong from the Jurists learning it through the court proceedings via Apollo and his proof?
Whats wrong from the Jurists learning it through the court proceedings via Apollo and his proof?
Because once you compare it to the MASON system, Apollo doesn't explain half as much.
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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icer wrote:
Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
Regarding the second point, that is not what I mean. I'm saying, how would PHOENIX be able to get the backstory that he apparently told "us" told to the jurists other than the MASON system?
Because a whole lot would happen with the jurists that we don't see. There'd be a [extremely boring to play] jurist session lasting a few days [?] where the jurists watch all the court proceedings on TV [we are explicitly told that the jurists watched everything which happened in court] and are given whatever boring informational materials as briefings. Ones which would be hopelessly boring as a game. Probably various things would happen in court detailing the cases before the defense attorney got there too.
Case 4 lasts from October 7-9 according to the CR timeline. They did NOT have days to present it all.
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
Case 4 lasts from October 7-9 according to the CR timeline. They did NOT have days to present it all.
Did it take you 3 entire days to play the MASON System and court segment of 4-4? I don't think so. Lots happens that we don't see, including stuff which never happens on screen.
Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
Because once you compare it to the MASON system, Apollo doesn't explain half as much.
So what? The in-game jurists are giving a verdict on Vera's innocence or guilt. It's only the player who is judging on Phoenix's guilt, therefore only the player is communicated the extra info about Phoenix in the MASON System. Why would the in-game jury have to know as much as the player? Besides, the player also controls Apollo during the court session, and Apollo says something about Mr Wright telling him about his investigation. It's a way to get the story to the player, (who will use this info playing as both 'Apollo' and a 'jurist') not to the in-game jurists.
Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Second, a lot of things in the game probably were not exact. Like, we know he probably did not take one of Kristoph's bottles of nail polish to Vera to get her to tell him more about the client. It was probably something he figured out through years of investigating, like many other things featured in the system. But for the sake of convenience, he made the connections more obvious for those playing the game who would be in the jury.
"You just wish you could talk in Webdings."
Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Phoenix: As Apollo Justice has his
bracelet...
Phoenix: ...so, too, do I have my
own "weapon" of sorts.
Phoenix:...My Magatama.
The in-game jurists wouldn't know about Apollo and his bracelet!
This is also when we get the 'Think of it... as a game.' and '...Now that you know the game, let's play.'
Man, the 4th-wall breaking.... Phoenix knows it's a game, and it's being presented directly to the player as the player.
Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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icer wrote:
Oh yeah, here's the proof that when the player plays the Mason System segment of 4-4, Phoenix is talking to the player, not to the in-game jury:
Phoenix: As Apollo Justice has his
bracelet...
Phoenix: ...so, too, do I have my
own "weapon" of sorts.
Phoenix:...My Magatama.
The in-game jurists wouldn't know about Apollo and his bracelet!
This is also when we get the 'Think of it... as a game.' and '...Now that you know the game, let's play.'
Man, the 4th-wall breaking.... Phoenix knows it's a game, and it's being presented directly to the player as the player.
Phoenix: As Apollo Justice has his
bracelet...
Phoenix: ...so, too, do I have my
own "weapon" of sorts.
Phoenix:...My Magatama.
The in-game jurists wouldn't know about Apollo and his bracelet!
This is also when we get the 'Think of it... as a game.' and '...Now that you know the game, let's play.'
Man, the 4th-wall breaking.... Phoenix knows it's a game, and it's being presented directly to the player as the player.
What about Thalassa? She knew about the bracelet, too.
You know, the more I see people bitch about this, the more I wish AJ would be retconned... Not that I think it's going to happen.
Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Apollo: ...you make that... er, rather unique face.
Judge: Even I noticed something, and my eyes aren't what they used
to be.
Apollo: Ack! Sorry! It's just... the way you were moving just now.
Apollo: It was particularly suspicious.
Interpreting body language they may pick up on, that he uses a bracelet to do it they will not. They would certainly not be thinking of it as a magatama-ish 'secret weapon!'
It's very clear that everything is directed at the player, except for the tiny segment before the verdict. The verdict segment gets a location: October 9, 12:48 PM
Jurists' Chambers
The rest doesn't.
Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA fo shiz. 
Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
Then why is it that in the MASON system, Phoenix talks to the "Audience" like they don't know a thing about the case? That would be for the jurists, I'd think.
And where is this?
Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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icer wrote:
Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
Then why is it that in the MASON system, Phoenix talks to the "Audience" like they don't know a thing about the case? That would be for the jurists, I'd think.
And where is this?
I'm not exactly sure, but it's somewhere during the MASON System. It was something about the Gramaryes, I think...
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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icer wrote:
Which of Magnifi Gramarye's
disciples pulled that trigger?
Where did the vanishing
defendant, Zak Gramarye, go?
What dark truth lurks behind
the forged diary page?
And what about the girl who
was left behind...?
Found right after flashback trial ended.
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
icer wrote:
Which of Magnifi Gramarye's
disciples pulled that trigger?
Where did the vanishing
defendant, Zak Gramarye, go?
What dark truth lurks behind
the forged diary page?
And what about the girl who
was left behind...?
Found right after flashback trial ended.
This just proves my point. This is to the player. The jurists have no reason to ever know about Trucy, she is nothing to do with the case at hand, in terms of Vera guilt/forgery/Kristoph or even Phoenix being innocent etc. This is all about story to the player. And would all this flowery narrative ever be in an official setting to a jury? Higher-ups would be observing what Phoenix does there, it's not like he's become Chief Justice Minister of the nation. As for the fact that the player knows Phoenix adopted Trucy, Phoenix doesn't necessarily know what the player's seen so far (all this 4th-wall garbage) , he's just taken this 'opportunity' to give us something of his story, he isn't even on-screen most of the time to know what else the player has seen (or know that the 'player' was bearing witness to Apollo's subconscious.) . Also, the game wasn't necessarily written in order or always going to be in its final order. And we know Trucy was adopted but we haven't seen the specific scene of how Zak left her or when Phoenix adopted her.
In fact, every single question Phoenix presents here is of little relevance to the actual Vera trial, in terms of the in-game jurists.
Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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especially since Phoenix is known to break the 4th wall
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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The case intro actually happens just before the Jurists make their decision. What with all the "it's up to you" stuff, it certainly seems that this scene is directed to the jury.
The MASON System is a commercial program, which comes with
's camera. He bought the System at some point after T&T, and set up the cam to record his "last case", which the player then plays through. He then wears it to record all his investigations for the next seven years, and saves all that into the MASON System. This means he doesn't need much time to make the "game", because the clever people at ESG Studio designed to automatically organize the relevant footage. All he needs to do is visit 
's cell, and possibly Drew Studio. Easy.The time-travelling evidence can be explained, of course.
had known for a while, and probably spotted his nail polish at some point. He could just buy some the same, and use that as evidence - he just didn't record the store visit with the MASON Cam. The locket? In 4-1, it's shown that the locket holds a pic of
. Yet, the one in the MASON System holds a pic of 
. Additionally, in 4-1, the locket is described as being taken by force, while the one in the MASON System is simply handed over. The logical explanation is that they're two different lockets. Maybe. Actually, that's a bit weird. got the locket after the trial - Zak dropped it when enacting his miraculous escape. Then, the locket was received at the Borscht Bowl Club. It was just simplified in the MASON System, because didn't take the Cam to record the locket-collection.
Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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00Davo wrote:
The case intro actually happens just before the Jurists make their decision. What with all the "it's up to you" stuff, it certainly seems that this scene is directed to the jury.
up to you? All I can find is the end, right at the end to the literal Jurist Chambers. There's nothing like 'up to you' in the intro.
Phoenix:
......
Phoenix:
Judge wisely.
Judge well.
---
Phoenix: And when all the questions
have found their answers...
...the final trial will
begin.
This implies that the trial doesn't even start till after the MASON System game of the player. But I bet the in-game Jurists didn't 'play the MASON System game' before the trial began. He's even implying the trial will only begin after the MASON System Game, like it literally does in the software, unlocking the 'trial stage'. In the 'real world', nobody's going to delay the trial for that kind of purpose.
00Davo wrote:
The MASON System is a commercial program, which comes with 's camera. He bought the System at some point after T&T, and set up the cam to record his "last case", which the player then plays through.
's camera. He bought the System at some point after T&T, and set up the cam to record his "last case", which the player then plays through. But why would he want to suddenly start recording his trials? He has no idea something bad will happen. Also, on screen in court is the one time you do see him in 3rd person when you 'play as' him. But you see in 1st person in the defendant lobby, belying the theory that he took a 'courtroom TV' footage for the MASON System.
Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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-This is some kind of important district or even national level trial of the jurist system. It's very important
-Phoenix is deploying the jurist trial in his hobo outfit, implying that his position in the whole Justice Department is still fairly low ranking. And it would be, he's a disbarred disgraced hobo no matter how many strings Edgeworth and Maya pulled.
-Whatever's going on with the jurists would be closely observed by people other than Phoenix and the jurists, since it's a TRIAL of the jurist system
Taking all the above into account, it's inconceivable that the high ups in even the insane GyakuSai legal world would let the jurists play some utterly insane game which has no apparent connection to the case at hand! Phoenix already has a suspect reputation, remember? Even if Edgeworth is supervising and rubber-stamping, higher ups will still be monitoring such a momentous event. And even if he did manage to deploy the game, any kind of looking at what he'd done in terms of manipulation would result in criminal charges far exceeding 'presenting forged evidence'. And there's no evidence he indeed decided to go out in a beautiful final explosion, as he says 'maybe he'll take the bar exam again' implying that he's allowed to.
Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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I'm sure most everyone who has played through AJ has realized by now that you really can't trust it at this point in time. It really felt slapped on in the game. Sort of like it was a late addition to try and get rid of the dull "OH LOL THIS IS OBVIOUSLY THE REAL KILLER BUT YOU DON'T HAVE DECISIVE EVIDENCE SO YOU LOSE GG NO RE" sort of thing that happened in every previous case in the games.
Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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Seal481 wrote:
It really felt slapped on in the game.
The mason system was probably thrown in to lengthen the case and make it seem more interesting...
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Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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La Diable wrote:
Why is anyone having a hard time thinking that Phoenix can talk directly to the player? He's done it in all four games! (Usually at the beginning of a case or wherever action happens offscreen.) I agree that it's a little confusing because there is the MASON background during that part where he IS talking to the jurists. But the MASON system makes no sense whatsoever if we assume it was meant for the jurists, because it's almost all stuff that's irrelevant to the poisoning of Drew Misham. They don't need to know how Phoenix ended up with Trucy or that she and Apollo are siblings or any of that. That's story stuff that only applies to players.
This.
It's just a gimmicky subgame within the main game. It breaks the fourth wall, has you time travel, tells you stuff a Jury would never need to know (or be able to acknowledge in a court of law), etc.
Re: 4-4 Time Paradox? *spoilers*
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It doesn't necessarily explain what exactly happened, but it was the sum total of Phoenix's seven years of research.
He probably collected all that data himself over the course of time, and then, being the technical wizard he is, created a complicated computer program so the jury could easily play out the events of the last seven years without reading through o-so-boring case briefs.
God forbid juries do their homework.
Gozu wrote:
omg ur just lik 
did ur parents di or somefin
did ur parents di or somefin
icer wrote:
Trucy: [Daddy was fired from legal clerk for loitering] Daddy has a fun new job as a street sweeper!
Phoenix: Guess what Apollo, today I swept up some EVIDENCE! ....
Phoenix: Guess what Apollo, today I swept up some EVIDENCE! ....
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