Poor Phoenix, gets so much hate for wanting to clear his name.

---

since when?

---

Woooooooow, how is it that when progress is being made and posts are being shaved from novels to term papers, that someone comes and cranks back the debate forming repeated arguments and insane claims.

I've already stated my opinion, and I'm not going to intentionally reiterate it. Now, to retcon Apollo Justice or even declare it an AU would really do nothing for the series. Retconning it would piss off, I'm gonna estimate here, but lets just say a MAJORITY of the fans. Most people enjoyed the game as a whole, and less, but still a lot, enjoyed the characters and all the details that the die-hards hated.

Now, its been brought up that Phoenix's fall was timed stupidly, being 2 months after his happy ending. But allow me, if you will, to take an argument that was used against my contribution right back at you guys "It's Fiction! It's not supposed to be realistic!". I could just call it a day at that, but I like to present my argument, and not stick to liberal debate tactics of calling names, making vague points, and then ending.

You see, if I were on the writing staff, I probably would've timed "that case" around the halfway point between PW3 and AJ, and built the timeline from there. Sure you'd have to change some things, but it'd add to the dimension. There'd be so many possibilities, you could show a gradual downward spiral from his high-point, to his final downfall. But, I wasn't on the writing staff, and the plot twists have been made, many characters were bettered, in a sense, because of this. It has allowed deeper development and introductions of characters.

Now, I've probably missed a few things here, but I so want to say: You can't make ridiculous assumptions by reading summaries or checking spoilers. You can't determine the quality of a novel by reading a sparknotes version of it. So, stop whining for once, pick up the game, and PLAY IT! You can't justify any of your arguments if you don't play the game! You can hate what's been done to the characters all the way through, but at least, PLAY IT!

---

Last edited by Percei on Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

Poor kid, he just wants to know how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop.

But that damn fucking owl...

---

Very true, I would know from experiance XD

---

I'm sorry, but why is the story being fiction an excuse for bad writing? With that argument, one could say the Batman and Robin movie was a brilliantly written masterpiece worthy of an Oscar, and when people point out the suckage of it, defend it by saying "It's fiction!" *



Sorry again, but I'm confused. How did kicking Phoenix out of the top spot before he even had a chance to brush his teeth make for deeper development and introductions of characters?


*Before you guys flame me about comparing AJ to B&R, let me say I think AJ's story is eons better then B&R, but then again that's like saying Super Mario World is better then say, Bebe's Kids for the SNES. I was just using an example.

---

Oh man, lots of replies.
First up.
MAKING AN AU WOULD NOT MEAN AJ 'NEVER HAPPENED'. In fact, the actual 'AU' would be a reality where Phoenix continued being a lawyer. This doesn't even have to be detailed unless the writers later see fit. The AJ reality is still the 'main' reality of the series currently being detailed.

It's like, say 2-4. Good ending went to the game 3 reality. Bad ending didn't.

The writers merely make it official that at some point in time, some 'butterfly effect' or decision means that the reality which had the scenario that led to game 4 is being explored in the current games (Although it makes sense to make the split at 1-5, since this is what genuinely happened from a writing perspective: GS4 is a follow-up to 1-5, 2 and 3 being functionally irrelevant, it could be occurring after game 3.) but there is another alternate reality where the disbarring didn't occur.

Alternatively, GS5 itself could be alternate reality to GS4, but still with Apollo as protagonist: 5-1 or another of the game could be a flashback case where a young Apollo thwarts Kristoph's plot to bring down Phoenix, before it occurs, and the major revelations of game 4 can have been uncovered in this scenario too by slightly different means.

By the way, if GS4+ is made an alternate reality, they can do basically anything to Phoenix. Kill him, make him Gant II... it only encourages the writers' 'vision' and allows them to develop Apollo to his full capacity without constraints about what they do to Phoenix to achieve it. It's only beneficial to both arcs if GS4 arc is considered one of 2 alternative scenarios for Phoenix post 3-5.

Okay, now to reply to people..


Okay, I'm basing this on messages I've seen ever since I finished AJ (when was it, May?) and 'arguments' I've had with Apollo fans. Granted, it could be a vocal minority, but there are a lot of rather 'extreme' Apollo adherents who cannot stand the idea of Phoenix again becoming a lawyer, even if he's off-screen. (Some will pop up in every topic asking if/wishing Phoenix became a lawyer again.) I think even the mighty Croik thinks Phoenix shouldn't again get to become a lawyer. (ie shouldn't, not 'I don't mind either way'.) Detailed discussion reveals that their reasoning is something along these lines: they don't want Phoenix becoming a lawyer or getting attention which might improve his status over game 4, or even moved to a background role, as they want him further subordinated to Apollo and made to have less, not more, empowerment than game 4.

Trying to argue that Phoenix being a lawyer would not hurt Apollo is futile as these fans take the line that they want Phoenix comprehensively replaced as THE Ace Attorney, figurehead of the franchise, past, present and future. Since Phoenix's position in the GS Franchise is still 'above' Apollo's, they see any increase in in-game power and status as a threat to Apollo being considered THE ACE ATTORNEY of the series, since they think it's unfair Phoenix was arguably the star of game 4, taking Apollo's spotlight, and they want some kind of comprehensively eclipsing and replacing Phoenix to happen on-screen. Since Phoenix is mentor he's supposed to stay 'dead' but since he is physically alive, if they make too many concessions he might come back to life and 'take over the arc'!

I'm not sure I agree any of it would really happen, but it seems to be an in-game power issue to them. Phoenix had 'too much' power in game 4 or something, therefore they think he needs even less?


How can it take an additional 2 games to take the bar exam? It can't support a sub-plot. But if you mean, a sub plot devoted to Phoenix where he interacts with people like Maya and Edgeworth to better reconcile the game with 1-3 I'm all for it, though I'm not sure that's what you really meant.

'A lot' was an assumption. The existence of at least a 'vocal minority' is not. And it's true, people who only played game 4, or many who played game 4 first, aren't interested in and don't see the need for a subplot 'restoring' Phoenix or reconciling him with his old arc. They merely see it as 'wasting' time which should have been devoted to Apollo. That's why I suggested the 'GK 'series' option - the people playing most likely ARE interested in that kind of thing.


That's nice. It's the aftertaste of game 4 which is the problem. You know what was designed as an incredible and canon ending for those characters is going to be vapourised '2 months later'. Game 4 is actually a follow-up to 1-5, not 3-5.


*facepalm*
I'm so sorry.
Phoenix did NOT get his 'perfect ending' because it is no longer an ending! Game 4 never meaningfully references anything but 1-5 and the game has the atmosphere that game 2 and 3 never happened. Everything implied at the end of 3-5 is contradicted by what we see in game 4, supposedly '2 months later'. The trilogy wasn't 'unravelled' - games 2 and 3 were gone, since the writers themselves considered this a follow-up to 1-5 and wrote accordingly, and the game is in many ways an ironic deconstruction of the themes of 1-5 and game 1.

The disbarring stuff alone would have been tolerable - it's the tandem 'disapperence' of game 2 and 3, any kind of plausible scenario to link it to 3-5 and the absence of such fundamental characters even just 2 months later, in contradiction to 3-5, which make it seem more like some bad unadmitted ret-con of game 3.



We have 3 Phoenix games, 1 'Apollo' game and 1 pending Edgeworth game. GK is cousin to Phoenix Wright trilogy (Edgey wasn't even existing in GS4 universe). It just makes sense that they should be able to still market the 3 games of Phoenix Arc (which new players by way of GK are more likely to be interested in) and their associated universe as a complete and appreciatable story, but now all they can say is 'It was deconstructed and largely eliminated 2 months later, we sacrificed it to forceably create a 'new' arc by deconstruction, rather than a separate creation'. Being a DUAL AU is beneficial to ALL 3 game 'arcs' And it lets them make TARGETED fanservice, so other people don't get irritated.


Personally, I think Phoenix's inclusion in that particular manner hindered the 'transition'.



Oh yes. Likeable Characters! I'll pay a lot for them. Phoenix, Edgeworth, Maya, Franziska, Mia, Larry.. I'll keep paying a lot for them!
Um GS4 you say. Well Phoenix, Ema and......
....
....
Exciting cases? And emotive ones? 1-4, 3-5, 2-2, 2-4...

Ah, but they killed the old arc to make GS4. See how you don't like any infringement on the sanctity of GS4 (which you played first, right?), even just making it an AU? Maybe other players disliked poor treatment of game 2 and 3 which they enjoyed, game 4 effectively being an unofficial ret-con of them?

GS4 wasn't a 'good plot'. The 'Phoenix Mistake' stopped them properly developing Apollo's character or story. The mistake is precedent. 1-5: hit. GS4: Miss. Since some people liked GS4, that's why we democratically go to parallel AU assertions or separate Phoenix to 'GK2'.


And that, and the existence of these arguments, just demonstrates the need for some kind of solution, like declaring Au or Phoenix in 'GK side series'. What you consider 'worthless fanservice', another person considers NECESSARY character reconciliation'. Separation at least allows fanservice to be better targeted. I personally wouldn't care, emotionally, if they took RobbieValiant's ideas of declaring Apollo and AJ never happened and Apollo is an AU subordinate in a Phoenix-centric GS5 - but I can also see this is HIGHLY UNREASONABLE from both an AA franchise/marketing perspective and insulting to the people who like Apollo and the game. If the above happened, you would quite rightly demand some kind of rectification for Apollo, though I wouldn't. Please see this is a similar situation, and accept that people want and demand 'fanservice' (I'd call it 'necessary reconciliation to imply this wasn't some Au which happened after 1-5 in a reality where game 2 and 3 didn't exist.') on this issue, although having it NOT in the main Apollo series is perfectly reasonable and probably better for all concerned.


Like DarkWobbuffet implied, for me it was a RANGE of issues with GS4, having a couple of them would have been tolerable, but the sheer level of them reached a critical mass beyond which they were inignorable.

I would have been fine with the entire game if Phoenix had just become a LAWYER and left in the credits. I would have been fine with the entire game EVEN if it didn't say he became a lawyer, if he parted from Apollo and it was confirmed he would not appear at all in GS5 and be spared suffering further indignity. I would have been fine with the entire game if there'd been even the vaguest sense Maya and hopefully Edgeworth were confirmably implied to be ASSISTING and closely associating with Phoenix off-screen, as then it would have been a more conceivable follow-up to game 3 or even 2.

Since none of these 3 very small redeeming points occurred, I find it hard to ignore the other problems with it, which I won't waste space detailing here. And I'm perfectly aware other people liked it for what it was, and I don't want to deny them their enjoyment, but there are a lot of people who WANT both greater redemption for Phoenix and re-association with the closest chars of his old arc, and have a right to get those needs met. Phoenix's situation and associated lack of 'past' was the 'gift' to people who played the old games first from the GS4 writers, and if we didn't enjoy this part of the 'targeted product' we don't have to accept it.


I had emotions to GS4. Negative ones. Also a sense of letdown. I think I had some stupid idea Phoenix would return to being a lawyer at the end and he'd leave, redeemed, for an Apollo-only GS5. I'd found out various spoilers for the game, but I was actually eager to try it (I didn't think it would be as bad as the controversy and I was actually curious. It was also about a week after I'd finished the trilogy for the first time.)



This is not the issue.

Last edited by icer on Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sorry again, but I'm confused. How did kicking Phoenix out of the top spot before he even had a chance to brush his teeth make for deeper development and introductions of characters?[/quote]

Here's How: You've played through three games and entire storyline that was COMPLETED. It fulfilled it's duty by raising questions and answering almost all of them. You all say that Apollo Justice ruined the original series, but how? It changed a character? That's some of the most pathetic reasoning I've ever heard. It's not like it reached back into the series and changed the past somehow. You know what it would be called if it did that, it would be called a retcon.

So, onto my main point, sorry for that little rant. It allowed deeper character development, especially for Phoenix, because he's not just doing the same thing. I think they've concluded the original trilogy quite well. I think, a game featuring Phoenix again, and especially so for one that has Retconned/AUed Apollo Justice, would probably be terrible. I mean think about it, why do you want to play phoenix again so badly? Capcom has moved on, so you should too. Phoenix did his time and had three good times. But having him again would be, well, idiotic.

By the second to last case of PW3, I had grown slightly weary of Phoenix's character. 3-5 struck those, but that was because it was the CLIMAX of the series that followed Phoenix. He'd become such a cliched and drawn out character, it was time to do something different with him. If there was another game that featured Phoenix in the exact same freaking situations, it would be terribly drawn out. With Phoenix as Hobo Nick, it allows the writers to branch out in so many different ways. Where as Lawyer Phoenix was extremely constriciting, because, what other role could he play than the Cliched Hero?

Endnote: As for what this topic currently is supposed to be for, I think that there should be appearances from one, two pushing it, old characters. Maya, Pearl, Godot, or Franziska would be really some of the only logical choices. But this is where I will say, THIS IS THE AJ CAST NOW. Having every main character come back in the game would be pointless, like digging up graves or something along those lines. How can the new cast grow and have us learn to love them if the Old Cast keeps popping up and soiling development of characters by making us think things like "Oh, ________ was way better because he/she was the orignal, where now __________ is doing that and it just sucks."

Endnote 2: After taking time to read icer's novel of a post, I'm not going to change my reply which I had left for about an hour. No, that would do nothing since it seems all that was done was reiterate points made earlier.

---

It got rid of the above completed ending. So it's not an ending. The ending is contradicted by everything we see in game 4 - not just for Phoenix, but for Maya and even, arguably, Edgeworth. And their questions are no longer answered.

It was. It's a follow up to 1-5, not 3-5.

True. But they decided to have the idiotic time. It was called GS4.

So don't return him in such a major fashion. Use the time to develop Apollo and just make him have a smaller cameo. They could have done it.


Oh No. Phoenix isn't allowed to see friends from his old arc any more because it might compromise Apollo! They're suposed to be dead now! They don't exist!

This is why we need AUs or fanservice in GK with regards to Phoenix. You can't stand the idea of Phoenix getting to see his closest friends, but a large number of other people are desperate for this to occur. 'Learn to love them'. I thought you already did? Did the return of the GS1 chars to game 2 and 3 stop you from being able to stand newer chars like Pearl, Franziska or Godot?

I'm gonna ignore much of the childish replies, and just say to this.

WHEN, was it ever even implied that they were dead, when is it even possibly mentioned that he doesn't keep up contacts with his old friends?

In face, they even allude to the OPPOSITE of that in 4-2, where he mentions someone had sent him a lot of Steel and Nickel Samaurai DVDs. Now, I can't remember exactly, but I think he (Phoenix) was talking about that he was sent these DVDs by this person (which you can assume is either Maya or Pearl) after they heard of his accident. If you think about it, yes, maybe they should bring in some old characters, but if you're so obviously desperate for some fanservice, I think you could at least concede for a mention of how these characters are doing in GS5.

And before you asked why they didn't show up, or were explained how they're doing, it was probably ON PURPOSE. They wanted to focus more on Apollo, and not put the spotlight on Phoenix anymore. There are a number of canon reasons you haven't met them yet. But to say that JUST BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T MENTIONED IN APOLLO JUSTICE (NOT PHOENIX WRIGHT), THEY MUST OBVIOUSLY NOT EXIST ANYMORE. APOLLO JUSTICE IS APOLLO JUSTICE'S GAME, NOT A TOOL JUST TO BRING BACK OLD CHARACTERS FOR DESPERATE FANBOYS AND FANGIRLS WHO WANT TO SEE THEM.

Ok... I went a little overboard there.

By the by, if you wanna see old characters (Maya, Pearl, Edgeworth, etc.) so badly, here's a little idea.

PLAY THE ORIGINAL TRILOGY

---

By you:





See, this is degenerating again. You don't want to see Maya or Edgeworth in GS5 because you think it's irrelevant. Some other fans agree with you. Many other fans DO want to see Maya and Edgeworth in the game, or at least proper mentions of Phoenix interacting with them, not somebody 'keeps sending' DVDs into a black hole. It's not confirmed she ever even sees him, or sent them in response to the accident. The rest of the time, Phoenix is portrayed as alone, not somebody with strong friendships offscreen.

Since nobody seems to concede to allowing something to placate the other side, is why I've started giving up that any reasonable resolution of Phoenix in GS5 itself is likely and the divisiveness is why I've fallen back to thinking an AU or Phoenix in GK is the best idea. Obviously Percei will be mad if, say, Maya turns up to associate with Phoenix in GS5, while other people will take this as the reason to actually buy the game, even if they hated GS4.

By the way, Gyakuten Saiban 4 does not have 'Apollo' in the title, nor a '1'. It's not 'Apollo's game' conclusively, that's responsible for more of the 'problems' the more extreme Apollo fans have with Phoenix gaining status again.

And when is there ever any evidence, beyond vague Easter Egg mentions, that game 2 or 3 ever happened or that the game would be any different if it had been written before game 2 and 3 were made? The characters were not returned, therefore, they do not exist in the writers' universe for purpose of plot or impact or connections on other characters. Maya 'existed' solely during that scene, then became irrelevant again. It's a policy. One they should either lose for GS5, or cater to fans of the older arc in another acceptable way.

Okay, this is getting fun.



Yes, it WAS completed. Phoenix's story was done, finished, time to move on! But oh wait, guess what? Phoenix was shoehorned into AJ, and now his story has to continue.



Exactly, it changed the MAIN CHARACTER almost entirely.



Which is pretty much what they did. It's like the writers basically said, "Oh, you think Phoenix's life is going to move on as a successful lawyer like Mia shaped him into? Well nuts to that, he becomes a deadbeat hasbeen almost immedately after that, haha!"



I couldn't agree more. Aside from guys like Robbie, I was all primed and ready to start a new Ace Attorney series and let Phoenix and the old cast rest, but apperently Capcom wouldn't allow that. They not only forced Phoenix into the game, but they devoted the entire story to what happened to him. How can we move on when he's standing there in our faces?



Better a 'cliched hero' then an even more cliched 'sidekick'. *looks at Apollo*



And we all saw how well that plan was carried out.



Thanks, I will.

---

Wow icer. I was using a METAPHOR, A MET-A-PHOR



Secondly, I see how you guys debate, its a farce really, you sit around and take parts of quotes of other people then ACT like they said something completely different



I never even said I didn't want ANY in that last post (in fact I've stated that I would like to see one or two, but what I was talking about, I didn't want ALL of them", I was trying to explain a reason why there WEREN'T any in GS4. But, obviously you get by with misquoting me, as Wobbuffet did in his post. I see how you guys like to "debate" if you can even call this joke a debate anymore. So I'm done with the topic, I hope you guys enjoy your immature squabbling.

:)

---

Well then with that argument overwith, time to get back to the original topic.

Maya - I could see her easily showing up in AA5, not only would it bring out a side of Phoenix that was missing in AA4, but her apperence could also clear up the mystery of the Magatama's existence, which I'm sure a lot of newer gamers who never played the original trilogy are confused about.

Pearl - To a lesser extent then Maya, though I'd love to see her interact with Trucy. ...then again, two forms of cuteness like that could give everyone in a five mile radius diabeties.

Gumshoe - Em... I dunno about him. As much as I love the big guy he never really provided enough of an important role in the stories to be brought back... though he does play the detective role far better then Ema.

Edgeworth - Heck yeah, this frilly pink-suited-

MAGENTA!

-guy could clear up one of the more confusing problems with case 4-4: How a disbarred ex-lawyer gets permission to rehaul the legal system. If the writers are smart they won't ignore this embarrasing plothole. Even a mention of "I have a close friend in the prosecutor's office who helped me set it up, we go way back..." would be enough to clear it up.

Franziska - I just mainly wanna see her back to whip the hell out of Klavier if he ever tried to flirt with her. XD

---

Oh well. This is going down the long path into circles-ville. Not really "fun", if you think about it.

Everyone is getting a little emotional, and it's time to take a nice walk and catch our breath.


I see cameos in the future, but nothing major. Unless they REALLY want to mess around with the Apollo arc.

---

I can accept some old characters returning, personally though the only one I really want is gumshoe. XD

---

If I really had to pick one old character to come back, it would be Franziska, because I felt the whipping was actually a pretty nice part of AA2 and 3, and the games wouldn't be the same without it. It needs to come back, and not just for comedy.

Now, how about an entirely new scenario?:

How about in GS5, we do in fact find out that AJ was just part of the MASON system? What if, the whole game was just made up in Phoenix's little game? Some might consider it retconning, but think about what could be done here, what if, for example, Apollo was really a bad guy? He could really be some major villian, and Phoenix created the MASON system to show a) An alternate reality where Apollo would be good. And b) many other plots relating to him as a villian. This would in a sense show why Maya, Edgeworth, and the others weren't in the game, and why the flashback was written poorly; they didn't exist in that world. They really weren't needed in introducing Apollo, and since the flashback was entirely fictional (maybe even written by Phoenix himself) it wasn't written very well? This is a lawyer game, not a game about writers.

Yeah, yeah, this sounds like a crack plot (which it really is) but it would indeed be an interesting explanation as to why AA4 lacked so much? It doesn't have to be entirely fictional; Kristoph could still be mysterious (if he even really exists) as he was in AA4 with the Psyche-locks and all, but perhaps he could be good? That'd be an interesting point as well.

Last, it could also explain why it was, as icer said, a sequel to 1-5; Rise From the Ashes was about, at it's core, how power can corrupt people; especially in higher positions, and that's what similarly happened in AJ with Kristoph and even Phoenix a bit.

It's really a crackpot idea, but it seems like a way to make everyone happy: Apollo gets major screentime as a villian, Phoenix is still a lawyer, and things could be "normal as usual."

It's just an idea, anyway. I'm kinda tired of the circles we're running in, so I presented something different.

---

Come on people, can't AJ be a sequel to the 2-4 Bad Ending or something instead? It just feels like 1-5 belongs in the original PW continuity. Oh well. I guess GK will clear things up.

Like I said, I'm fine with 1 or 2 major characters (preferably Pearl and Laurice) returning, and they could always throw in some references to the rest of the cast. Nick could be a lawyer (with Maya as his assistant <3) off-screen and appear every now and then to help Apollo, like in 4-3. How does that sound?

On bringing back old cast:

I'm fine with any cameos that could get brought up. Except, too much of it is a distraction from the plot, whatever the plot is.

I think they could do well by returning a fair few and making them the important pieces of a "filler" case, like the second or the third. But one case only, though. If that course is taken, then there'd be only space for a couple of cameos further on the plot.

Wow... Okay, that sounds EPIC, in my humble opinion. Kinda like the heel-face turn of the Terminator from T1 to T2, but in reverse.

I would be ecstatic. I'd even pay Capcom a hefty cash bribe to do so. Unfortunately, I don't think they're likely to hit on your idea. And some Apollo fans would surely get mad. Is it Apollo playing the game?

They might not like him being a villain. I always thought it would have been better if he'd been with Kristoph longer, got tempted by the 'dark side' but ended up saving Kristoph's largely off-screen enemy, Phoenix (only recently disbarred, or maybe before Kristoph's disbarring attempt, Apollo thwarting it.) Unfortunately, it's too late, unless this is an AU GS5 reality.

We seem to be back on old chars other than Phoenix, so... can't you see that it would not be irrelevant for a character like Maya to be brought back to the series, because even though she didn't appear in GS4, her story was re-opened by it? Her 3-5 ending was totally contradicted by game 4 even before the disbarring, so it obviously 'didn't occur'. So we can't be happy with her 'canon ending' because that's obviously not what happened. (If they didn't want her brought up, they shouldn't have contradicted her ending, or should have made an excuse why it didn't happen.)

1-5 was a good case and did fit well with the original continuity. (I wish they'd made similar effort with GS4.) It's game 4 which is the problem. It's a follow-up to 1-5 not just in themes but also in timeline, game 2 and 3 were disregarded because the new writers worked on 1-5, then game 4. I think they saw game 2 and 3 as irrelevant, especially since they disregarded them when working on 1-5 since it was set in the past.

They reconstructed GS4 Phoenix vaguely from his 1-5 character model and his relationships likewise. [They kindly substituted Kristoph for Edgeworth (Friend who stood up for me at class/Bar Assn Trial. Ouch.) and Trucy for Abandoned Female with missing parent/s, a role taken by Ema in 1-5, vaguely descended from game 1 Maya. I think they rather arrogantly thought this covered all his relationships, ignoring his game 2 and 3 interactions with Edgeworth and Maya. Since Edgeworth and Maya 'left' at the end of 1-4/1-5, I guess in the minds of the writers, they 'left' forever.]

It's the fact that the writers themselves seemed to write this as a timeline at plot continuity from 1-5, not 3-5, that leads to it being a logical AU point. I liked 1-5 and would have preferred it in Phoenix Arc but hey, both 'happened'. Maybe make the AU point at some event in 1-5? Maybe in one reality, Kristoph watched the trial and got jealous of Phoenix, but in the other, he was prevented from doing so.

That also sounds perfect and also I'd pay Capcom the above hefty cash bribe to get it. But there's some Apollo fans who are highly against this kind of thing...

By the way, it would be possible to return a char like Maya and have her interact with Apollo in an interesting new role. (Though I'd be beyond ecstatic with Phoenix being a lawyer with her as partner, offscreen again, don't even have to show her)

Apollo being part of MASON would be a huge fucking cop-out, some of the gayest shit I've ever seen in a video game, and piss me off at the series more than ever. How can you be estatic about such a shit plot point like that? You already (a lot of you) bitch about the shitty job that they did going from 3 to 4, so you want them to dig themselves DEEPER into the whole by adding a whole lot more bullshit that is harder to weasel out of? Some Apollo fans would get mad? Shit, Phoenix fans (or is it phans?) like me would get just as, if not MORE pissed at a move like that. You guys are fucking insane, I swear.

Maya the prosecutor:
I would think that the victims lieing or being in error for three or four straight cases would get old REALLY quickly. Just like how Ergo-I'm-a-douche kinda got old, along with foolish-fool and ja-Herr-Forehead.

Maya the prosecutor careens WAY too much into the realm of fan-fiction for me, and aside from a case cameo (a witness, again?! No way!) or a mention, I think her presence would get distracting rather quickly. Besides, who's left to kidnap her?

You say we can't be happy with her "canon ending." Why not? I already told you, I replayed the games not too long ago, it still feels pretty good at that super-objection. I always kinda took her "as Nick's assistant" thing as a bit of a half-serious joke.

Though evidence CAN point to it, it is a bit of a long assumption that the writers looked only at 1-5 before making Apollo Justice.

Honestly, it feels like a lot of these points are really grasping at straws at this stage. It's a "I want things to go back to the old way, but I'll completely fuck up EVERYTHING to do it, regardless of the consequences, even if it negatively impacts the old way." The sadder part of it is, is that the series will doubtless go into this new frontier, leaving these arguments essential moot bitchings between fans. But that is the fate of most VG arguments.

I consider myself moderate in regards to protagonist-casting, with a wish to see Apollo mature in his own right. But the extremism on both sides (Phoenix should die! Apollo doesn't exist!) is starting to piss me off.

---

Apollo as part of the MASON System is, like Ing said, the craziest ass pull I've might ever see. You basically making a good character worthless, which will make everyone who played Apollo Justice feel... like there's no point. It's demeaning for someone who can be like Phoenix's Equal.

Anyway, If Phoenix was going to be playable again, It'll need to be in 5-1. He should possibly be defending someone from his past that we know about (Iris?).

I do have a feeling that Maya and Pearls will come back, but I don't want them to have the same personality in there previous games. Doing so will just make them as if they'll never grow up, which can be become annoying after four games or so. I expect Maya to still have that "child at heart" personality, but she will have a more mature side as well (giving little quips here and there), at least 75% of the time. Pearl should be more like a "Maya of this era" but still have that typical cute factor along with her. As for how they'll appear, maybe Pearls could be a witness to the last case and Maya will just help with info and posssibly as a motive.

Gumshoe is also a good choice for GS5. He is a character that you just got to love no matter what. His comments and actions are part of the true fun about the games. He might probably be in the game by doing detective work at the other side of town.

I really don't support that idea you know, I just wanted to throw somthing in to have as a new discussion point, since we keep talking in circles. It's a cool idea, but it's too abstract to be used.

To be honest, I just really want them to keep up with what they originally planned, I'm sure they'll put in more relevant GS2 and 3 references in GS5, as well as sure that they'll fix up some things that need it. I trust what they do, and I'd like the Apollo saga to continue as-is.

The "Phoenix as a playable character" saga is over with, having him as a mentor would be a natural extension of it, really...

---

I actually think, if they did it properly, it would make an awesome turn, and not come off as crap. Done correctly, it would be kinda like the half-point twist in Terminator 2, where you think the T-800's the bad guy, and then WHAM, he turns around saves John from the T-1000.

Only if they drop the previous-arc requirement that the mentor role includes being DEAD (literally or metaphorically.) See, the games could keep a respectful attitude to Mia in general, because she really was dead, so not being THE Lawyer didn't take away from her, and there was no way she could really 'come back to life.' Phoenix, on the other hand, is only forced to be kept 'dead' by the writers, and since he has the capacity to be 'alive', has to be treated in an insulting and unfair manner to be able to keep playing role of 'dead mentor'.

'What they planned' -this is part of the problem. The original Apollo arc concept was a totally separate series, an Apollo-centric universe with no Phoenix and not a follow-up to 1-3. It's the very fact that they couldn't follow this plan since Phoenix was demanded to be returned (and they arguably messed up on the Phoenix-Apollo roles).
The writers still wished, I assume, they'd got their separate series, and didn't bother to make it a properly integrated follow-up at all (and come across as pretty resentful, the way the deconstruct game 1 and ignore game 2 and 3 as irrelevant.)

An AU dual timeline or Phoenix 'leaving' back to his own separate law firm etc. would, in fact, be the way the writers could best follow their uncompromised creative vision for the Apollo arc and chars. Phoenix wasn't part of the original vision at all.

What do you mean by 'distracting'? Oh, of course Maya the Prosecutor is just crack, I was showing she does NOT have to return as 'kidnap victim' or 'defendant'. She can just return as 'friend of Phoenix'.

Her 'canon ending' didn't happen. GS4 contradicted it.

The writers WROTE 1-5. Then, since they were making a NEW GAME, and returning only Phoenix, they reconstructed Phoenix's 'new' character model based on the 1-5 character model alone. 1-5 IS their reality and backstory of Phoenix in their minds, and to write that they ignored game 2 and 3 by necessity.

That's why the Apollo series should have been SEPARATE. He should have risen in his own 'universe' WITHOUT him and Phoenix having to compromise each other. Since the problem wasn't prevented, we have to effect greater separation on the arcs in hindsight.

That's why declaring them dual AU/realities, or getting Phoenix largely out of Apollo's arc and dealing with him and his cast in GK 'series' is the best thing they can ever do for Apollo, his cast, character development, and the franchise as a whole.

Then they can productively develop Apollo and a new arc, and have in in addition to the old arc/casts' existence, instead of both compromising Apollo and destructively further fragmenting the remains of the old arc. (of course, they could better reconcile Phoenix with his game 3 backstory in the Apollo arc, but this would also 'compromise' Apollo and fans would think it was at the expense of Apollo's development.)

Fans of the old cast would have been perfectly happy to engage in the new world of Apollo and develop similar attachment to a new cast. If they hadn't decided so arrogantly that game 4 (should have been GS series 2 game 1) would suddenly eliminate the masterpiece the Phoenix arc built up over 3 games. If they're re-separated, we can again enjoy both arcs to their maximum potential, simultaneously. Everyone wins.

yes we are going in circles aren't we

---

WHO CARES IF IT WAS CONTRADICTED. THEY ALL HAD THEIR ENDING. PERIOD.

Besides, maybe Maya wanted to go back to being Master? It's certainly possible.

And if they truly overlooked games two and three, why is the Magatama in there at all?

---

The point is IT'S NOT AN ENDING ANYMORE, THERE'S MORE TO BE TOLD IN THIS FUTURE.

Time for this one again:

GS5 - TRUCY WRIGHT - Ace Attorney

Location: Wright and Co. Law Offices

Trucy: Hi! I'm a new attorney! (I just passed the bar exam and here's my new shiny badge!)
Phoenix: My baby girl is all grown up and a lawyer! And at such a young age [16] too! I'm so proud *sniffle*
Maya: Congratulations, Trucy! I don't think we've had any lawyers working here since Nick got disbarred, have we.
[Thalassa enters]
Thalassa: Ah! I never dreamed my only child would grow up to be a lawyer!
Trucy: Daddy, what's that DVD you're watching? Looks like some law show.
Phoenix: Oh, this kid keeps sending them to me. What does he do again.. work at McDonalds?
Trucy: He's not a lawyer?
Phoenix: No, something made him quit 2 months later.. I think.. I don't care...
Trucy: Isn't that that case with the Gavin brothers? I wish I had a brother! (I'd treat him better than that.)
Phoenix: I'm sorry, Trucy, I never could find you one.
Maya: Don't worry, Pearly said she wanted to be your sister
Trucy: Yay!
Well, off to meet my first client!

et al...

So Apollo's not in the game even when characters he used to be close to recently are? Not weird at all. And look. He even got a REFERENCE! It totally contradicts his GS4 ending, but who cares. They decided GS4 was his ending, so we'd better like his new reality and forget about him.

..Of course, that's just a comparative example, showing if they treated Apollo GS4-> GS5 in a similar way to Maya GS3->GS4. Would you think this was acceptable?


Because they couldn't dispose of the 'secret weapon', it's not related back to the plots where he got it is it? There's not much else you can do in the limited Mason System, it would be boring without the magatama and insane to get rid of such a useful gameplay mechanic. The official backstory is Game 1 - 1-5 - Phoenix was a lawyer (unspecified) for ~2more years->flashback trial.

...I want this game, seriously.
Okay, I know the way you described it was to prove a point and I agree, but I honestly think it would be awesome to be Trucy...
I support TRUCY WRIGHT - Ace Attorney.
It's TRUCY'S TIME NOW, DEAL WITH IT!

Now, ON topic, the thing that I think some people disagree on with the ending, is that those of us who feel the ending was invalidated probably feel like that because we felt the main point of the ending was the promise of an ongoing better (or at least back to normal) set of circumstances for our protagonist and his friends. If the entity of the old (main) cast was left behind and never mentioned again in GS 4 then we would be allowed to assume that they were in these better set of circumstances that we left them in. Heck, if Nick had at least appeared to be happy with his new lot in life, then while I'll admit that I'd still be vaguely upset my favorite defense attorney wasn't, but at least I could accept his situation as being somewhere within the promise of the end of his arc.
But some of you don't quite see the ending as a promise like I do, or think that 2 months is enough of a time for that promise to expire, and while that's a valid opinion it's not one I can agree with, and I feel that some restitution needs to be given to make good on that promise they broke with GS4.

I honestly like the AU option, it allows Apollo to come into his own and only take into account the Phoenix arc parts that will work for his plot, and allows Phoenix to enjoy the ending that he earned in his arc, without either compromising each other. And I'd really like to see both happen. ^.^

---

Yeah.

It's all right.

These type of things happen on a Phoenix Wright forum.

---

...


Are you comparing an APOLLO ending to MAYA's?

That is seriously illogical. The game does NOT star Maya in the original trilogy. It stars PHOENIX. Conversely, the GS4 does not star Trucy, it stars APOLLO. There's a difference.

---

I was making a valid symbolic comparison. Phoenix was such a major player in game 4, and Maya had such a large role in 3 games, that she's had just as much spotlight as Apollo by the time she ends 3-5. There's no official commitment to a 2nd Apollo game, so in the hypothetical scenario they decided GS4 was the last game starring Apollo, they could start another follow-up and handle him in much the same way they did Maya. You thought he'd keep being a lawyer, but guess what, he stops inexplicably and unexplained. You thought he'd found his family... but the relationship inexplicably 'disappears' except for him 'sending DVDs'. And he doesn't turn up or even exist in any situations you'd expect. Because he's been suddenly deemed 'irrelevant', no matter how much this contradicts game 4.

As you can see, you hate the concept. So maybe you can appreciate why a lot of people are resentful over the way they handled Maya. Does anyone else think my parallel illustration is illogical?

---

For one thing, there's a difference between seven long years and less than one (at least, thats how the timeline went in the original trilogy; every few months was a new case). It's a lot more believeable for people to change their minds and do other things over a great year span, than a few months.

And again, it's NOT a valid expression. Maya did NOT star in GS1-3. Apollo starred in GS4. There's quite a bit of difference, despite what ever you think.

And I believe GS5 will star Apollo because it's the logical thing to do. They will keep on with Apollo's story up until it's finished, and no AU will exist.

---

I think the parallel is a bit stretching it.

Mainly because Maya played a huge role in Phoenix's story, not Apollo's. So it really wouldn't make sense to go out of their way for a one-shot cameo or something to include her.

However, Phoenix is integral to Apollo's story (mainly because of the connections he had with the Gramaryes and Kristoph, who are integral to Apollo), so they work him in just fine (I know you disagree, but you know what I mean).

It is in the sense that Maya is very important to Phoenix, but not to Apollo. But Phoenix is very important to Apollo.

Phoenix is the link between both of them, but that doesn't mean a cross-over was meant to happen in their separate spheres.
Really, I thought the stacks of DVDs were a nice touch, and I knew right away who they were from, and what it meant. Phoenix even said it was from "this... 'kid' I know... sent them to me"
I saw it not as a huge contradiction of her ending, but rather, a nice aside dedicated to her for the older fans of the series.

So no, I don't quite think you were making a valid symbolic comparison.

---

^It's more than enough direct parallel to illustrate the CONCEPT, which was the whole point. It's irrelevant if every single tiny detail isn't exactly the same. And the differences in some factors (Apollo was the main protagonist, though remember we also play as Phoenix for part of the game) are made up for by other factors (Maya had 3 games, more detailed characterisation, and a far stronger and more complex relationship was engineered between her and Phoenix than between Apollo and the whole cast put together.) Also, Apollo's GS4 ending was less explicit to his future "Yeah I think I'll keep doing this lawyer thing for a while. Chords of Steel, Here Comes Justice!" than Maya's.

This more than compensates enough to make it parallel enough to illustrate my point, which was really about how it would be an arrogant and unreasonable way of dismissing the character, inconsistent with what you'd expect from the previous game, and yes, 'illogical' and Apollo fans would not like it. Saying it's irrelevant because Maya was important to Phoenix not Apollo doesn't work because she doesn't appear with Phoenix even 2 months later - and we play as Phoenix. (It's not her absence on-screen which is the problem (not returning her to the action is understandable), it's the lack of a proper mention or reasoning to compensate.)

For example, a more acceptable way to dismiss Apollo in the above Trucy scene might be to explain that he worked with them before, but he left to start his own practice (at least it's explained better) and Trucy misses her brother or whatever (relationship is maintained, not demoted.)

As for saying the example doesn't work because Apollo was star of game 4, not Trucy: The whole point is that this 'GS5' features a different main char (precedent: GS3-GS4), and Apollo is decided not to be returned (precedent: all old arc chars to GS4) so Apollo is suddenly 'irrelevant' and so are his relationships to the remaining chars.(precedent: all old arc chars to GS4)

Anyway, now we're arguing over nothing (which kind of proves the point I was making, even a crack scenario of illogical character dismissal of Apollo gets people annoyed, though personally I wouldn't care if it happened, so please see that even if you didn't think they mishandled the (lack of) Maya in game 4, other people did, and you would be just as annoyed if it happened to a character you liked, like Apollo.)


The logical thing to do is, in fact, whatever makes the franchise marketable. That's probably not in the hands of the writers, though bad writing means no market. And yes, returning Phoenix was a problem of the marketing department (though mishandling this was a problem of the writers.)

Why exactly are you so desperate for it not to be a dual AU? It's not like it 'doesn't exist'. It's the best thing they could ever do for Apollo and giving the writers the freedom to develop him however they see fit.

---

We've been arguing over nothing, toots. People would get annoyed if it was a crack scenario about Phoenix, too.

I never said that I liked Apollo. I already said I prefer Phoenix over him. Regardless, what I think is best for the series is having Apollo be the star of the next game. Because I want (and know) that he can become just as likable as Phoenix did over the course of those games.

I would say that would be better for the series overall than by having more and more convolution added to have Phoenix wiggle his way back into the main limelight.

Something tells me that if they play their cards right, Phoenix will play a much less central role to the game. This too, I think, is for the best.

---

Because it's a cop out. "Oh, um, so this game is not pleasing the fans as much as we thought it would, so now we'd like to bring you the REAL GS4! The other GS4 is now a AU timeline, giving us more time to extend the "main" story!" That just doesn't look cool, and makes the Apollo games less imporant.

---

Weren't we supposed to not be arguing on Phoenix vs. Apollo up to this point anyway?

And furthermore, there's no real point in it. Capcom doesn't secretly track Court Records, so what we say probably won't make any difference to them. That given, the argument becomes just a clash of personal opinion. Which is pretty unecessary.

IMO, the main issue people had with what happened to Phoenix is not so much what happene,d but the fact that all his close friends (Maya, Pearl, edgeworth, Franziska, Gumshoe, Larry, and also Iris and Godot) seemingly broke off all contact with him and left him for seemingly no reason.

It felt like they had either died or never existed, which we know isn`t the case.

3-5 basically showed that when Phoenix is in trouble, his friends were there to help him when he really needed it. 4-3 basically showed the opposite. THAT is the true contradiction with AJ.

---