Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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RobbieValiant wrote:
Nose wrote:
His early character in the game 4-1 in particular is a plot device, it's to make the returning gamer angry with him, much like Apollo was, and to try and work out what caused this change in him.
IF what you say is true, then it obviously worked way too well... <<
Oh come on, when I played 4-1 I was like "What the hell? This is bullsh*t, how can Phoenix act like this?"
(I still think that 4-1 is the weakest case in the entire series, not only for this reason)
And I was curious about Phoenix through the entire game. I kind of rushed through 4-2, but then I forgot about Phoenix for a while in 4-3, because that case was entertaining, and Apollo really shone there.
And 4-4 finally gave the answers. Phoenix was totally in character there, and I was satisfied that they didn't screw up Phoenix. Sure, he lost his job, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he had a horrible life for 7 years and his friends left him. It gave me the opposite impression, to be honest.
"I've seen many strange thing during the last 7 years" - said Phoenix at the end to Thalassa. God knows what kind of things he might have seen. Again, it gave me the impression that Maya showed him quite a few things of her Master-y things.
Strangely, none of you complained that "oh my God, Edgeworth had such a horrible life, for 15 years he had nightmares and thought that he killed his father, and after 1-5 he was depressed enough to leave and re-think his life" and the other characters. Finally Phoenix experienced something bad, too. It happens with everyone. It makes it easier to relate to Phoenix.
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
The evidence of literature's decline.
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Szabu wrote:
Strangely, none of you complained that "oh my God, Edgeworth had such a horrible life, for 15 years he had nightmares and thought that he killed his father, and after 1-5 he was depressed enough to leave and re-think his life" and the other characters.
That's different. He fills the archetype of conflicted villain, which has a whole other set of things that are to be expected.
Phoenix, however, is the determined, idealistic protagonist, when you boil it down. Which is why
didn't work for me. Nick has always- to a degree- been a pure idealist. The resolute Clark Kent type, who believes the good will always end up on top, and there's a black and white right and wrong. Which is why 
worked while and what happened to him didn't sit well with me at all.
Last edited by RobbieValiant on Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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RobbieValiant wrote:
Szabu wrote:
Strangely, none of you complained that "oh my God, Edgeworth had such a horrible life, for 15 years he had nightmares and thought that he killed his father, and after 1-5 he was depressed enough to leave and re-think his life" and the other characters.
That's different. He fills the archetype of conflicted villain, which has a whole other set of things that are to be expected.
Phoenix, however, is the determined, idealistic protagonist, when you boil it down. Which is why
didn't work for me. Nick has always- to a degree- been a pure idealist. The resolute Clark Kent type, who believes the good will always end up on top, and there's a black and white right and wrong. Which is why and what happened to him didn't sit well with me at all.That's understandable... but life is unpredictable.
By the way,
still believes in "justice will win", and even before AJ, he didn't see things black and white. Hell, 3-5 was the prime example of this with Godot.Come to think of it, in GS1, Phoenix really was an idealistic protagonist who saw things black and white. This attitude changed in 2-4 when he met Edgeworth and lost a case, and he further developed in this direction in 3-5.
Sure, 3-5 was the most expressionist case with pure good vs pure evil, but there was Godot, who turned out to be a killer, even though he did it for good.
"Was justice really served?" - asked Phoenix at the end.
Now, this post-3-5 attitude is more like AJ's Phoenix than GS1's idealistic Phoenix.
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
The Mouth of Sauron
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icer wrote:
^^This is a continuation of the GS3 STORY when Takumi specifically said it wasn't?
Ing, you didn't even play the trilogy first, right? You have no qualification to judge on this issue.
Ing, you didn't even play the trilogy first, right? You have no qualification to judge on this issue.
I started with Ace Attorney, babe.
I have played every game as they have successively come out. 3 is my favorite.
Way to assume. I have played the games in order of release, and I still want it this way.
But if you'd like to write me off, I won't stop you. Jus' doesn't reflect well on yourself.
It's not a continuation of the same story. One story (phoenix's) ended. But it is still a continuation of the same universe.
Gozu wrote:
omg ur just lik 
did ur parents di or somefin
did ur parents di or somefin
icer wrote:
Trucy: [Daddy was fired from legal clerk for loitering] Daddy has a fun new job as a street sweeper!
Phoenix: Guess what Apollo, today I swept up some EVIDENCE! ....
Phoenix: Guess what Apollo, today I swept up some EVIDENCE! ....
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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Szabu wrote:
And what makes you think that "GS4 is a continuation of 1-5"?
Just because Ema is in there?
GS4's story has nothing to do with 1-5's story anyway.
The references to 1-5 are also just simple Easter eggs.
Just because Ema is in there?
GS4's story has nothing to do with 1-5's story anyway.
The references to 1-5 are also just simple Easter eggs.
...
The entire THEMES of GS4 are a direct continuation of 1-5, not to mention the only returning characters. [MEEKINS, of all worthless characters, returns]. GS4 basically is an ironic spin on 1-5, a sequel to it. Two words: FORGED EVIDENCE. It's never/barely mentioned in 1-3, but is the main theme of 1-5. Edgeworth AND Von Karma's demise are actually RET-CONED to be directly caused by FORGED EVIDENCE specifically. This was barely/never mentioned in 1-4/2. Not to mention it puts Lana out.
-In 1-5, EDGEWORTH is revealed in court to have presented forged evidence given to him by Gant/Lana. The shame is enough to contribute to him ‘choosing death’, upgrade to being THE tipping point to incur this. In fact, it's said to be THE source of the demon prosecutor reputation, rather than just one contributing facet like in original game 1. Before this, FORGED EVIDENCE was not such a specific issue in his demise, now FORGED EVIDENCE is THE issue which gave Edgeworth his bad reputation AND lead to him 'choosing death' and disappearing. Very ironic. Maybe this is why Edgeworth is not here to help Phoenix, in the alternate scenario minds of the director. Now Forged Evidence specifically is ret-coned to be one of the MAJOR reasons Edgeworth disappeared after ‘choosing death’. It was never such in 1-4/2.
Spoiler: QUOTES 1-5. EVIDENCE
-Phoenix thus is more closely associated with the forged evidence issue, evidence law etc. in this case as FORGED EVIDENCE is made a very big deal of in this case, in fact the case practically revolves around it. Forged Evidence is ret-coned to be THE demise of Edgeworth, Von Karma, and additionally Lana. Also we get given forced over-study of the Rules of Presenting Evidence and Evidence Law. Such obsession with evidence law and presenting evidence! It’s obvious where these themes lead. They are barely/never touched on in games 1-3.
-EMA. Ema is living proof GS4 is an ironic sequel to 1-5, not GS3. Ironic in that of course we can see she did not get to be a scientific investigator.
- Lana gives a chilling ‘prophercy’ in 1-5
- Lana: Your badge looks new.
- Phoenix: I polish it daily.
- Lana: In a few years, the gold
plating will flake off.
- Lana: Then we'll see the real you.
-
- Phoenix: (Gah! What ever happened
- to innocent small talk!?)
-
- Lana: Give it three years.
- Then we'll see what you have
- become.
COULD GO EITHER WAY. 2 scenarios, one IRONIC
- MEEKINS, a worthless 1-5 character, returns. Of all the irrelevant people to choose from the ‘old’ arc. 1-5 is not really part of the old arc, it’s the transitional 1.5 ‘arc’. Nobody can claim Meekins was chosen for fanservice or importance purposes. It’s just more evidence this is a sequel to 1-5, otherwise they would have chosen a character of more import or fan following.
-Gumshoe gets a brief cameo in the flashback trial, and he of course was in 1-5. He has some irrational urge to ‘beat’ Phoenix, which is inconsistent to his 3-5 char. I’m not sure how it parallels or contrasts his 1-5 char. Nobody outside 1-5 returns or is even considered relevant.
There's some sad irony in 3-3 where Maya tells Phoenix he shouldn't ever take up gambling as a career, after he's just lost a game of cards to her... it's hard to see it after 3-3.
As I explained earlier, Kristoph is an ironic parallel of Edgeworth’s role in game 1, and Edgeworth presents forged evidence in 1-5 and disappears over it. Trucy is an ironic parallel of Maya’s game 1 role, and gives Phoenix the forged evidence to lose the case and his career, an ironic contrast to Maya who gives Phoenix the decisive evidence in 1-4 and other cases) to win the case. We note Maya is not in 1-5 as she is back in Kurain training, and she is away during GS4. After 1-5, forged evidence specifically is now upgraded to be directly responsible for Edgeworth disappearing, after so much emphasis that they only succeeded re. evidence and justice because Edgeworth and Phoenix were working together. Divided we fall. IRONY IRONY IRONY
Quote:
I bet they want to make Maya return in GS5, as a complete stranger to Apollo (and mentioning Maya by name to Apollo would kind of ruin it). They probably have something planned and they didn't want to reveal anything about her until necessary.
I bet they don't. This is wishful thinking in the extreme. Matsukawa thinks the Fey plot is irrelevant to her new story. If Maya is returned, it will be because the producer/Takumi specifically instigates a MAJOR policy change from GS4 to realign it back with GS2/3 plot, and this will most likely be due to poor reception of GS4's discontinuity. Takumi specifically demanded the inclusion of the DVD scene, Matsukawa didn't even stoop to that. Maya was not planned as an intended part of Apollo arc originally, criminal as this is. Don't delude yourself.
If this is a 'pointless debate' why is there an actual entry in TVTropes that this is said to be a 'broken fanbase' over the alternate scenario/timeline issue? MANY fans were disappointed over the discontinuity issue. They just don't show up to debate here like I do. All the more reason for me to do so.
Nose wrote:
Icer, seemingly your main ally in this pointless debate, seems to like the new Phoenix enough to have him in her sig, and she is one of the main Phoenix fans and Apollo Justice haters on the board.
When have I ever said I 'hate' Apollo Justice'. He's too generic to evoke any emotion in me at all. How can you hate a generic avatar? No, I hate the injustice wrought on Phoenix by the entire attitude to him in the GS4 game, a disposable icon whose reputation and story is allowed to be destroyed [vapourised and ret-coned] at whim. NOT the disbarring itself, not the 'changed' character (I love him more now) but the sheer indignity that he's supposed to 'stay dead', sans the entirety of his GS2 and 3 development and relationships. INJUSTICE! Apollo's character [non] development was a side casualty of the same gross errors.
@Ing: I'm sorry, I confused you with Prosecutor Scorpion. You hostile people all run into each other, I'm afraid.
LOL parody sig trend. Phoenix/Maya Day is Sept 5!
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Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
The Mouth of Sauron
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Gozu wrote:
omg ur just lik
did ur parents di or somefin
did ur parents di or somefin
icer wrote:
Trucy: [Daddy was fired from legal clerk for loitering] Daddy has a fun new job as a street sweeper!
Phoenix: Guess what Apollo, today I swept up some EVIDENCE! ....
Phoenix: Guess what Apollo, today I swept up some EVIDENCE! ....
Last edited by Emperor Ing on Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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Who else could have taken that role? Maybe Larry, but Larry has a special relationship with Phoenix, so no.
[quote=icer]Takumi specifically demanded the inclusion of the DVD scene, Matsukawa didn't even stoop to that. Maya was not planned as an intended part of Apollo arc originally, criminal as this is.[/quote]
Any evidence?
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
Bronze Samurai
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And don't forget, hiding evidence is considered forging evidence as well. I believe it was brought up when Edgworth and Wright talked about the jar piece in the safe, and how it wasn't presented, as well as the other half of the evidence list. So yes, von Karma did forge evidence by hiding the second bullet.
Julia...<3
Related to NaturallyLazy, fatalfeline, JadeRoach, and Game Over!
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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Quote:
@Ing: I'm sorry, I confused you with Prosecutor Scorpion. You hostile people all run into each other, I'm afraid.
Personal insults in a debate=/=cool.
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
I hate Klaviema >_>
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Ceres wrote:
I wonder what happened to Grossberg, It's not like he dissipated into thin air.
He was an interesting character, I'd like to see him return someday.
He was an interesting character, I'd like to see him return someday.
We Have to find out what about his past involved lemons! He must return!
All the 1-5 references were to further fit it into the canon story. There were so many contradictions alluding to it's addition, I think it's fair enough.
Also, Ema was a brilliant choice for detective, and Meekins a good choice for stupid baliff.
I like the way that Phoenix's and Edgeworth's demises were similar. That's some brilliant irony. They might even push that further and have him return, but I hope not, or at least not until the end of GS6.
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
Otaku, #1 Machi fan, #2 Machi Fan
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Ceres wrote:
I wonder what happened to Grossberg, It's not like he dissipated into thin air.
He was an interesting character, I'd like to see him return someday.
He was an interesting character, I'd like to see him return someday.
Can I just be a jerk here? Thank you.
Ceres, in the Machi in GS5 topic wrote:
I don't think so, We probably won't see him again, perhaps a short mention, nothing more.
We don't really need more, do we?
It would be like Cody or Sal randomly popping up, Daryan, Machi, Letouse, case closed. Next please.
We don't really need more, do we?
It would be like Cody or Sal randomly popping up, Daryan, Machi, Letouse, case closed. Next please.
ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOGANT
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
Icer, SO WHAT if GS4 has 1-5 themes? SO WHAT? It doesn't really matter what "theme" it had. They just decided to bring back forged evidence. So what? It doesn't matter.
Quote:
And what makes you think that "GS4 is a continuation of 1-5"?
Just because Ema is in there?
GS4's story has nothing to do with 1-5's story anyway.
The references to 1-5 are also just simple Easter eggs.
Just because Ema is in there?
GS4's story has nothing to do with 1-5's story anyway.
The references to 1-5 are also just simple Easter eggs.
I was rebutting this as incorrect. That's what matters.
I'm sorry if you took offense, Ing et al. You people are hostile to my position, a statement of fact. It was not meant as a 'personal insult'. Though if you're desperate, I suppose I can edit it out as it wasn't intended to annoy anyone? Just say the word.
Seriously, at least half this topic is useless posts where people insult each other or argue about the arguing. (This is not an actual debate) Can we stick to the actual issues? Please?
I think Grossberg is now irrelevant to Phoenix and the new cast. He didn't appear in GS3 except in the past flashbacks, not in the present. DL-6 and Misty Fey was pretty much resolved.
There was no need to make a 'stupid bailiff'. The story could have been written any marginally different way. The story was deliberately written to be able to include Meekins, not Meekins included to fit the story.
LOL parody sig trend. Phoenix/Maya Day is Sept 5!
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Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
I'd say
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DramaticaXIV2 wrote:
Ceres wrote:
I wonder what happened to Grossberg, It's not like he dissipated into thin air.
He was an interesting character, I'd like to see him return someday.
He was an interesting character, I'd like to see him return someday.
Can I just be a jerk here? Thank you.
Ceres, in the Machi in GS5 topic wrote:
I don't think so, We probably won't see him again, perhaps a short mention, nothing more.
We don't really need more, do we?
It would be like Cody or Sal randomly popping up, Daryan, Machi, Letouse, case closed. Next please.
We don't really need more, do we?
It would be like Cody or Sal randomly popping up, Daryan, Machi, Letouse, case closed. Next please.
Smartass, You're forgetting one thing though.
It's a Lawyer game, Grossberg is a veteran lawyer, with his own firm.
-_-
It would make more sense then random witnesses.
Ahahahahaha
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
Rebirth
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Quote:
I think Grossberg is now irrelevant to Phoenix and the new cast. He didn't appear in GS3 except in the past flashbacks, not in the present. DL-6 and Misty Fey was pretty much resolved.
This is one point of yours I can agree with icer.
Quote:
There was no need to make a 'stupid bailiff'. The story could have been written any marginally different way. The story was deliberately written to be able to include Meekins, not Meekins included to fit the story.
I don't see why a stupid bailiff would be a issue in 4-4. Considering that you see Meekins for about 5-7 minutes in the flashbacks.
Quote:
Lana gives a chilling ‘prophercy’ in 1-5
- Lana: Your badge looks new.
- Phoenix: I polish it daily.
- Lana: In a few years, the gold
plating will flake off.
- Lana: Then we'll see the real you.
-
- Phoenix: (Gah! What ever happened
- to innocent small talk!?)
-
- Lana: Give it three years.
- Then we'll see what you have
- become.
- Lana: Your badge looks new.
- Phoenix: I polish it daily.
- Lana: In a few years, the gold
plating will flake off.
- Lana: Then we'll see the real you.
-
- Phoenix: (Gah! What ever happened
- to innocent small talk!?)
-
- Lana: Give it three years.
- Then we'll see what you have
- become.
Consider that 1-5 was a bonus case. Everything else in the PW games had already been written, so they just foreshadowed the events of AJ/Game 4 where they could.
Quote:
It’s just more evidence this is a sequel to 1-5, otherwise they would have chosen a character of more import or fan following.
Any addition of a major PW era character would get the fanbase to become more bitchy in asking for more of the same characters. And then the new era of Ace Attorney would be over populated by PW characters, which would screw up the whole point of a new era.
Quote:
I’m not sure how it parallels or contrasts his 1-5 char.
I don't believe it does.
Quote:
There's some sad irony in 3-3 where Maya tells Phoenix he shouldn't ever take up gambling as a career, after he's just lost a game of cards to her... it's hard to see it after 3-3.
Major change of events and lifestyle causes people to take up other habits. That point is worthless.
Quote:
We note Maya is not in 1-5 as she is back in Kurain training, and she is away during GS4.
I thought Maya juggled being the Master Of Kurain and Wright's assistant between GS3 and GS4.
Quote:
Maya was not planned as an intended part of Apollo arc originally, criminal as this is.
This is criminal how I might ask?
Quote:
Matsukawa thinks the Fey plot is irrelevant to her new story. If Maya is returned, it will be because the producer/Takumi specifically instigates a MAJOR policy change from GS4 to realign it back with GS2/3 plot,
The Fey plot is irrelevant
And enough with this whole GS4 continues from 1-5 and not GS2-3. Let me summerize the reasons for believing that and respond.
No mention of characters in GS2-3, only from 1-5. Minor mentions of 2-3 are only in easter eggs and therefore don't count.
I felt the easter eggs were fine enough. And they didn't go into very much detail of the events of 1-5 anyway.
Main PW characters personalities don't make sense.
Maya - There is nothing to say that Maya didn't help Phoenix with his investigation. Let's assume that when Maya returned to Los Angeles to work with Phoenix she helped out in the investigation any way she could. Being the master of Kurain requires a lot of commitment to the tasks of the job. And how much could she have helped anyway. Please tell me.
Edgeworth - With
and past there is nothing to say that Edgeworth would not help Phoenix. How did a disbarred attorney get the position of the chairman of the jurist system."BAD WRITING BY CAPCOM"
My point makes more sense than yours, which is very cheap.
Phoenix - Phoenix said in AJ that he keeps in contact with his old friends. That means he has not forgotten about Maya, Edgeworth, Iris, Larry etc. Also he has become more wise and more jaded due to the events that have taken place, and realized what he must do to find the truth.
Saying GS4 is a AU to 1-5 in order to
& 
will get togetherQuote:
If this is a 'pointless debate' why is there an actual entry in TVTropes that this is said to be a 'broken fanbase' over the alternate scenario/timeline issue? MANY fans were disappointed over the discontinuity issue. They just don't show up to debate here like I do. All the more reason for me to do so.
Because stupid PW era fans latch onto any concept to hope that Phoenix Wright will appear as the main character in the next game. I agree, there are a ton of moronic fans out there like that.
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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Platinum Skye wrote:
I don't see why a stupid bailiff would be a issue in 4-4. Considering that you see Meekins for about 5-7 minutes in the flashbacks.
Quote:
Consider that 1-5 was a bonus case. Everything else in the PW games had already been written, so they just foreshadowed the events of AJ/Game 4 where they could.
Oh. WHY? 1-5 was written BEFORE 4 anyway. So you are already admitting 1-5 was written as a prequel to GS4.
Quote:
Any addition of a major PW era character would get the fanbase to become more bitchy in asking for more of the same characters. And then the new era of Ace Attorney would be over populated by PW characters, which would screw up the whole point of a new era.
So you agree Meekins [1-5] is not a Phoenix Arc character. And that a 'new era' should not be a continuation of GS3 scenario. Because a continuation would be swarming with major GS3 chars.
Quote:
That point is worthless.
No it's not. It's of relevance demonstrating that this is not a continuation of the GS3-style of scenario.
Quote:
Quote:
Maya was not planned as an intended part of Apollo arc originally, criminal as this is.
This is criminal how I might ask?
Szabu had the unfortunate impression that the writers intended Maya to feature in this arc and are saving some spectacular plot component for GS5 they had already planned [?] at GS4 timepoint. I was softening my somewhat scathing dismissal of this as totally unfactual by agreeing with him that this was not a situation I would have preferred.
Quote:
Edgeworth - With and past there is nothing to say that Edgeworth would not help Phoenix. How did a disbarred attorney get the position of the chairman of the jurist system.
and past there is nothing to say that Edgeworth would not help Phoenix. How did a disbarred attorney get the position of the chairman of the jurist system.And nothing to say he did either. It would have been so easy to allude to indirectly and fill that major impossible PLOTHOLE.
Quote:
"BAD WRITING BY CAPCOM"
My point makes more sense than yours, which is very cheap.
My point makes more sense than yours, which is very cheap.
I.. don't get this part. But maybe you're not responding to me here.
Quote:
Phoenix - Phoenix said in AJ that he keeps in contact with his old friends. That means he has not forgotten about Maya, Edgeworth, Iris, Larry etc.
No he didn't. Quote? He writes to Maya. Nobody else is ever mentioned even indirectly.
Quote:
Saying GS4 is a AU to 1-5 in order to provide some hope that & will get together
& will get togetherPlease have the sense to keep cheap shot shipping wars out of this.
Quote:
is a well thought out idea, but it would make no sense as to why Capcom never confirm it in the first place.
Why would Capcom not confirm it? Well, Phoenix was only even returned merely because the marketing dept demanded it. Phoenix is the hook to get old players to even buy GS4 on release, this is blatantly obvious. If it had been marketed explicitly as an alternate scenario, a follow-on to 1-5 alone, that marketing pull for the initial GS4 buy by fans of the original arc would have been strongly reduced.
However, old fans who were unhappy with Phoenix in GS4 are less likely to buy GS5. A new hook will have to win them back. Particularly if they now resent GS4 for ruining the GS3 story.
Quote:
Because stupid PW era fans latch onto any concept to hope that Phoenix Wright will appear as the main character in the next game. I agree, there are a ton of moronic fans out there like that.
Half the fanbase is moronic? I don't think anyone thinks Phoenix will be the 'main character' [protagonist, he was the main char in GS4, arguably) again. They want better continuity with GS3, or else Phoenix to leave entirely and be spared further indignity, if that's all he can continue to expect in this arc. Or they try and pretend GS4 was a bad dream without even forming any reasoning behind it [which I have to admit I didn't really respect].
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Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
Rebirth
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Quote:
I see you don't consider 1-5 part of Phoenix Arc proper, since you think a Phoenix arc char would make people demand more.
I said major PW era character. Meekins and even Ema Skye were not major to the PW series.
Quote:
Oh. WHY? 1-5 was written BEFORE 4 anyway. So you are already admitting 1-5 was written as a prequel to GS4.
No I'm saying that they put foreshadowing in where it would not disturb to original writing in the Japanese GS games. 1-5 as we all know was a bonus case and was not written by the original writers, so they would put it there because they were doing they original writing for 1-5.
Quote:
So you agree Meekins [1-5] is not a Phoenix Arc character. And that a 'new era' should not be a continuation of GS3 scenario. Because a continuation would be swarming with major GS3 chars.
I said major PW era characters earlier in this post. A continuation of GS3 to GS4 should not be swarmed with characters from GS 1,2,3 because this is the new era of Ace Attorney, Apollo Justice. When you have a new era of something, you have different characters. You do not swarm the characters from the previous era in, because you have the chance of the writers doing the PW era again when the PW era was completed in T&T.
Quote:
No it's not. It's of relevance demonstrating that this is not a continuation of the GS3-style of scenario.
You are incorrect. GS4 Phoenix does not have to model what happens to him in minor text that doesn't effect a case at all.
Quote:
And nothing to say he did either. It would have been so easy to allude to indirectly and fill that major impossible PLOTHOLE.
If it would have alluded then Edgeworth would have shown up in some way. And then the fans would get bitchy and want more PW era characters in. And then the next game would be PW4 instead of AJ2.
And it's the only option that makes sense. Your point about bad writing regarding that is reserved when you have nothing else to put down. My point overrules yours.
Quote:
No he didn't. Quote? He writes to Maya. Nobody else is ever mentioned even indirectly.
I just pointed out that Edgeworth helped Wright get the position of chairman of the Jurist System, that means he does more than keep in contact with Edgeworth. The others are debatable I'll give you that.
Quote:
Please have the sense to keep cheap shot shipping wars out of this.
That was just typed to try to piss you off. I will stop it thank you since that was my idea all along.
Quote:
Half the fanbase is moronic? I don't think anyone thinks Phoenix will be the 'main character' [protagonist, he was the main char in GS4, arguably) again. They want better continuity with GS3, or else Phoenix to leave entirely and be spared further indignity, if that's all he can continue to expect in this arc. Or they try and pretend GS4 was a bad dream without even forming any reasoning behind it [which I have to admit I didn't really respect].
Half the fanbase is moronic. And yes there are tons of fans who Phoenix as the lawyer you play as. Phoenix in GS4 was an important character, you still did the majority of work as Apollo so he is the main character. And there is no true indignity in AJ era Phoenix, just fans who can't handle major change in their favourite character. And there are several fans who would pretend GS4 never did happen.
I am concerned that Capcom might ditch the AJ series all together and make the series go like what happened with Legend Of Zelda: Twilight Princess. But that's another issue all together.
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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For example, the deliberations about whether or not
is a "continuation of T&T" are just... stupid, IMHO. I just can't think of another word to describe it without being redundant.I don't care if people claim that
was "ruined" with . Mistakes were made and apparent contradictions were had. OK. I highly doubt will become an AU, though, nor do I think it will particularly solve anything. It just doesn't actually make sense to do that just to resolve ultimately minor issues. I don't see what this is going to accomplish. fans will probably be disturbed of the prospect that two different s exist, for example.
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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capefeather wrote:
fans will probably be disturbed of the prospect that two different s exist, for example.I know I would be. It would make me lose faith in Capcom's writing staff very much, because it essentially says "ALL THIS BAD STUFF HAPPENED BECAUSE IT IS A PARALLEL UNIVERSE, LOL. EVERYTHING IS FINE IN THE OTHER ONE, THANK GOODNESS".
So it turns into devoted fans like me saying "Ok, so which... universe do I choose? The one that ended happily? The one they still make games for? Do I like the lawyer Phoenix, or the Phoenix that still appears in the games... etc. etc. etc."
Now, you could say "You can choose one and continue to follow it", but that wouldn't work in a much wider sense. Because, there would always be the bastard-child games, that we either have to accept, or completely forget about. And frankly, why would we go through the trouble of forgetting an entry in a four-game series? Do we forgo the original trilogy in favor of the new arc? But then I lose all my favorite characters! Do we focus solely on the old arc? But then, the story ends after a certain point!
Splitting the series like that would irreparably damage it, no matter how much spin you can put on it otherwise. Regardless of bad writing in GS4, it would seem like even worse writing to do so, since Capcom has never even hinted at a branching parallel universe or whatever the hell.
As I said, Phoenix's story ended essentially after 3-5. But regardless, I have come to the conclusion that Apollo Justice takes place within the same continuity and timeline, even if not every single element is supposedly "carried over" into AJAA. Because that makes sense to me the most.
Gozu wrote:
omg ur just lik
did ur parents di or somefin
did ur parents di or somefin
icer wrote:
Trucy: [Daddy was fired from legal clerk for loitering] Daddy has a fun new job as a street sweeper!
Phoenix: Guess what Apollo, today I swept up some EVIDENCE! ....
Phoenix: Guess what Apollo, today I swept up some EVIDENCE! ....
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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Szabu wrote:
RobbieValiant wrote:
Nose wrote:
His early character in the game 4-1 in particular is a plot device, it's to make the returning gamer angry with him, much like Apollo was, and to try and work out what caused this change in him.
IF what you say is true, then it obviously worked way too well... <<
Oh come on, when I played 4-1 I was like "What the hell? This is bullsh*t, how can Phoenix act like this?"
(I still think that 4-1 is the weakest case in the entire series, not only for this reason)
And I was curious about Phoenix through the entire game. I kind of rushed through 4-2, but then I forgot about Phoenix for a while in 4-3, because that case was entertaining, and Apollo really shone there.
And 4-4 finally gave the answers. Phoenix was totally in character there, and I was satisfied that they didn't screw up Phoenix. Sure, he lost his job, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he had a horrible life for 7 years and his friends left him. It gave me the opposite impression, to be honest.
"I've seen many strange thing during the last 7 years" - said Phoenix at the end to Thalassa. God knows what kind of things he might have seen. Again, it gave me the impression that Maya showed him quite a few things of her Master-y things.
Strangely, none of you complained that "oh my God, Edgeworth had such a horrible life, for 15 years he had nightmares and thought that he killed his father, and after 1-5 he was depressed enough to leave and re-think his life" and the other characters. Finally Phoenix experienced something bad, too. It happens with everyone. It makes it easier to relate to Phoenix.
That's a good thing to look at, relating to Mr. Nick. It could be an important thing to look at, Edgeworth too. Using this we can take a good look at why some people who started with Apollo don't care and why some people who started during Nick's era are upset.
The people who started before Apollo and are upset got to know Nick and relate to him before he was disbarred so in a way, it's like they were the ones being wronged and they were the ones going through this.
The people who started with Apollo and don't care have a similar situation to the Edgeworth matter, they didn't know Nick before so it's not the same.
Really it appears that a person's startring point can greatly influence their views of what should be done with old chars.
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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Ceres wrote:
It would make more sense then random witnesses.
Ahahahahaha
Ahahahahaha
Random witnesses that are related to important plot characters would make more sense than irrelevent lawyer characters.
...sorry, on topic here?
Emperor Ing wrote:
Despite an overload of smilies, I think you are making a valid point here, capefeather. Despite this long argument, it sounds a whole lot like a debate over semantics, most of the time, and the argument of how we want plotholes to be filled, when there is a great chance that they won't be filled at all.
fans will probably be disturbed of the prospect that two different s exist, for example.
I know I would be. It would make me lose faith in Capcom's writing staff very much, because it essentially says "ALL THIS BAD STUFF HAPPENED BECAUSE IT IS A PARALLEL UNIVERSE, LOL. EVERYTHING IS FINE IN THE OTHER ONE, THANK GOODNESS".
So it turns into devoted fans like me saying "Ok, so which... universe do I choose? The one that ended happily? The one they still make games for? Do I like the lawyer Phoenix, or the Phoenix that still appears in the games... etc. etc. etc."
Now, you could say "You can choose one and continue to follow it", but that wouldn't work in a much wider sense. Because, there would always be the bastard-child games, that we either have to accept, or completely forget about. And frankly, why would we go through the trouble of forgetting an entry in a four-game series? Do we forgo the original trilogy in favor of the new arc? But then I lose all my favorite characters! Do we focus solely on the old arc? But then, the story ends after a certain point!
Splitting the series like that would irreparably damage it, no matter how much spin you can put on it otherwise. Regardless of bad writing in GS4, it would seem like even worse writing to do so, since Capcom has never even hinted at a branching parallel universe or whatever the hell.
As I said, Phoenix's story ended essentially after 3-5. But regardless, I have come to the conclusion that Apollo Justice takes place within the same continuity and timeline, even if not every single element is supposedly "carried over" into AJAA. Because that makes sense to me the most.
capefeather wrote:
fans will probably be disturbed of the prospect that two different s exist, for example.I know I would be. It would make me lose faith in Capcom's writing staff very much, because it essentially says "ALL THIS BAD STUFF HAPPENED BECAUSE IT IS A PARALLEL UNIVERSE, LOL. EVERYTHING IS FINE IN THE OTHER ONE, THANK GOODNESS".
So it turns into devoted fans like me saying "Ok, so which... universe do I choose? The one that ended happily? The one they still make games for? Do I like the lawyer Phoenix, or the Phoenix that still appears in the games... etc. etc. etc."
Now, you could say "You can choose one and continue to follow it", but that wouldn't work in a much wider sense. Because, there would always be the bastard-child games, that we either have to accept, or completely forget about. And frankly, why would we go through the trouble of forgetting an entry in a four-game series? Do we forgo the original trilogy in favor of the new arc? But then I lose all my favorite characters! Do we focus solely on the old arc? But then, the story ends after a certain point!
Splitting the series like that would irreparably damage it, no matter how much spin you can put on it otherwise. Regardless of bad writing in GS4, it would seem like even worse writing to do so, since Capcom has never even hinted at a branching parallel universe or whatever the hell.
As I said, Phoenix's story ended essentially after 3-5. But regardless, I have come to the conclusion that Apollo Justice takes place within the same continuity and timeline, even if not every single element is supposedly "carried over" into AJAA. Because that makes sense to me the most.
This...
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Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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Quote:
The people who started before Apollo and are upset got to know Nick and relate to him before he was disbarred so in a way, it's like they were the ones being wronged and they were the ones going through this.
The people who started with Apollo and don't care have a similar situation to the Edgeworth matter, they didn't know Nick before so it's not the same.
Really it appears that a person's startring point can greatly influence their views of what should be done with old chars.
The people who started with Apollo and don't care have a similar situation to the Edgeworth matter, they didn't know Nick before so it's not the same.
Really it appears that a person's startring point can greatly influence their views of what should be done with old chars.
That's a really simplified view, considering that I started with the first AA game and went down and think the things I do. Just throwing that out there.
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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Just throwing it out myself though that if you were to take a good look at things most views of anything are very simplified, things are so much more complex than at least I would think at first glance.
Anyways on my view of the old cast:
Maya should be in the game beyond some small referance (I mean you should actually meet her), acording to my logic. My reasoning is that in the first two games Nick saves Maya 3 times. The third time is especially important. Then there is T&T
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Also it would be interesting if some of the criminals got out by GS5 just because of how things would go if Nick was around when Apollo met them. Not as good as the thought of other characters like Pearl and Maya returning, but it would be interesting.
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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Ceres wrote:
DramaticaXIV2 wrote:
Ceres wrote:
I wonder what happened to Grossberg, It's not like he dissipated into thin air.
He was an interesting character, I'd like to see him return someday.
He was an interesting character, I'd like to see him return someday.
Can I just be a jerk here? Thank you.
Ceres, in the Machi in GS5 topic wrote:
I don't think so, We probably won't see him again, perhaps a short mention, nothing more.
We don't really need more, do we?
It would be like Cody or Sal randomly popping up, Daryan, Machi, Letouse, case closed. Next please.
We don't really need more, do we?
It would be like Cody or Sal randomly popping up, Daryan, Machi, Letouse, case closed. Next please.
Smartass, You're forgetting one thing though.
It's a Lawyer game, Grossberg is a veteran lawyer, with his own firm.
-_-
It would make more sense then random witnesses.
Ahahahahaha
Machi's connected to Lamiroir who'll most definitely be in the next game. Plus random characters show up in the sequels all the time (Lotta, Will, Wendy, Dr. Hotti.) Machi showing up again is entirely possible if not probable. I'd say anyone's fair game considering using an old character to play a bit part is easier than designing a new one.
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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Platinum Skye wrote:
Quote:
No he didn't. Quote? He writes to Maya. Nobody else is ever mentioned even indirectly.
I just pointed out that Edgeworth helped Wright get the position of chairman of the Jurist System, that means he does more than keep in contact with Edgeworth. The others are debatable I'll give you that.
Platinum Skye, do you understand why this argument is flawed and unsupportable? What you have stated is not a fact supported or even alluded to by the canon of the games. It's a piece of your imaginary head-canon, which cannot be used as 'evidence' to imply anything. The canon of the game IS that Edgeworth is never mentioned, even indirectly, even as an Easter Egg. Never is it said in the actual game text that anybody helped Phoenix with his 'secret mission', let alone Edgeworth. Your inference is based solely on your head canon influenced GS3 Edgeworth [- a contradictory inference, BTW, to the similar inferences which somehow justify in your headcanon the explicit absences of Edgeworth. Maya and other chars from game impact.] And unlike the 'easter eggs', there is NO indirect reference to Edgeworth at all even to invoke such a contextual reference in your head, let alone the game itself.
The sole, highly indirect allusion which may be said to be to Edgeworth in the actual game is when Ema complains 'prosecutors should be more slimmerous and less glimmerous' - but it's canon in every sense that Ema had a kind of crush on Edgeworth in 1-5 and her taste in prosecutors would still be influenced by this, regardless of whether Edgeworth is even in the country or still interacting with any of the cast. In short, it does nothing to indicate Edgeworth is influencing and interacting with the cast now, if indeed it is a reference to Edgeworth.
Platinum Skye wrote:
And it's the only option that makes sense. Your point about bad writing regarding that is reserved when you have nothing else to put down. My point overrules yours.[/b]
I still don't understand the logic of this, sorry. (Or when I have claimed 'bad writing' for anything. The whole point of the alt scenario theory is justification anyway.)
capefeather wrote:
fans will probably be disturbed of the prospect that two different s exist, for example.There is one Phoenix, with multiple 'what if' scenarios. This is fiction. People understand about stories. The separation is on a conceptual level, not an actual 'reality' of the GS Universe.
Emperor Ing wrote:
As I said, Phoenix's story ended essentially after 3-5. But regardless, I have come to the conclusion that Apollo Justice takes place within the same continuity and timeline, even if not every single element is supposedly "carried over" into AJAA. Because that makes sense to me the most.
But you argue against alternate conceptual timelines because the idea sounds 'unrealistic' or 'confusing' but that position is just as, if not MORE unrealistic and difficult to reconcile. Think how it is in Phoenix's real-world terms. Oh, we're on the one timeline, but a huge load of past history suddenly ceased to exert its actual continued impact or consequence and is largely collectively forgotten, obliterated from communal consciousness. [The Reality Leak? The History Erasure? The Great Purge?] It's just as realistically implausible as there being two SEPARATE stories, each with their own conceptual timeline like every truly separate story.
I think comprehending this is Phoenix with two SEPARATE stories with their own scenario timelines (a different story) is not more intellectually challenging than comprehending that Phoenix's story suddenly 'ended', and beyond that historic timepoint (3-5) everything that occurred the last 2 years suddenly ceased to be of future relevance and consequence because it's a 'new story'. But this is what you demand of fan comprehension unless GS3 elements such as actual influence of characters like Maya and Edgeworth occur in this arc.
Because this kind of 'new story' suddenly happening in somebody's life and deeming the fundamentals of their previous existence suddenly irrelevant is just as unprecedented and implausible in reality as 'multiple timelines.'
Even moreso, because it's already acceptable that different, separate stories can proceed as 'what if' scenarios' on their own separate timelines, the concept of multiple separate stories not impacting each other is one often found in media. How often you you get a NEW story on the SAME timeline which suddenly renders 2/3 of the old one redundant and superseded as past history? How is that at all consistent with observable reality or the norms in fiction?
It's far more implausible and difficult to conceptualise than the concept of multiple separate stories on parallel but slightly different conceptual timelines. Because it's just the norm that separate stories regarding characters can occur in multiple scenarios without impacting each other. And we already have a precedented 'alternate scenario' in this series in 2-4, and, less emphatically, 4-4.
Quote:
It would make me lose faith in Capcom's writing staff very much, because it essentially says "ALL THIS BAD STUFF HAPPENED BECAUSE IT IS A PARALLEL UNIVERSE, LOL. EVERYTHING IS FINE IN THE OTHER ONE, THANK GOODNESS".
The point is they didn't carry over any of the elements out of GS2 and 3. So it's not just a matter of Phoenix being disbarred, that would have been acceptable as 'bad things happen, the world is corrupt, happy endings don't happen' etc. But, his GS2 and 3 development and relationships just disappear without explanation? That is NOT a conceivable consequence of the disbarring and ruination of Phoenix by the injustice in society. And a lot of people have already lost faith in the writing staff because as a follow-on to GS3, it's a contradictory and impossible scenario.
As to 'choosing lawyer or hobo Phoenix', well, there is no 'choosing'. Hobo Phoenix is the canon scenario being continued now in the series. There will never be a Lawyer!PW4. 3-5 is the permanent ending of that scenario.
LOL parody sig trend. Phoenix/Maya Day is Sept 5!
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Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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hortanz wrote:
more walls of text!
Uh, yeah, that's, um, helpful.
icer, you already can predict my response. Part of what you say is still head-canon yourself.
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Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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capefeather wrote:
For example, the deliberations about whether or not is a "continuation of T&T" are just... stupid, IMHO. I just can't think of another word to describe it without being redundant.
is a "continuation of T&T" are just... stupid, IMHO. I just can't think of another word to describe it without being redundant.Does that mean to imply you agree it isn't?
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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icer wrote:
^Nothing integral to the validity of my overall argument. Platinum Skye's argument re. Edgeworth was not supportable, nobody can reasonably deny that. A piece of headcanon can not be used as evidence against a fact of the game text.
Does that mean to imply you agree it isn't?
capefeather wrote:
For example, the deliberations about whether or not is a "continuation of T&T" are just... stupid, IMHO. I just can't think of another word to describe it without being redundant.
is a "continuation of T&T" are just... stupid, IMHO. I just can't think of another word to describe it without being redundant.Does that mean to imply you agree it isn't?
icer, don't be that person.
Gozu wrote:
omg ur just lik
did ur parents di or somefin
did ur parents di or somefin
icer wrote:
Trucy: [Daddy was fired from legal clerk for loitering] Daddy has a fun new job as a street sweeper!
Phoenix: Guess what Apollo, today I swept up some EVIDENCE! ....
Phoenix: Guess what Apollo, today I swept up some EVIDENCE! ....
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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icer wrote:
^Nothing integral to the validity of my overall argument. Platinum Skye's argument re. Edgeworth was not supportable, nobody can reasonably deny that. A piece of headcanon can not be used as evidence against a fact of the game text.
Does that mean to imply you agree it isn't?
capefeather wrote:
For example, the deliberations about whether or not is a "continuation of T&T" are just... stupid, IMHO. I just can't think of another word to describe it without being redundant.
is a "continuation of T&T" are just... stupid, IMHO. I just can't think of another word to describe it without being redundant.Does that mean to imply you agree it isn't?
They obviously aren't. It's assumed that GS4 is a follow up to GS3.
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Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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It's why I just think that all the games are in the same continuity. Because every other theory pretty much disses someone. (The writers getting the brunt of it.)
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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Gerkuman wrote:
Because every other theory pretty much disses someone. (The writers getting the brunt of it.)
And criticism is obviously wrong, because if we do, they might, heaven forbid, notice and improve! (/sarcasm)
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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hortanz wrote:
shut up and go play the whole game
This. Just play the whole game, then we'll listen to you. Never mind liking it or not.
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Last edited by DramaticaXIV2 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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RobbieValiant wrote:
Gerkuman wrote:
Because every other theory pretty much disses someone. (The writers getting the brunt of it.)
And criticism is obviously wrong, because if we do, they might, heaven forbid, notice and improve! (/sarcasm)
How many people seriously listen to
"Oh my god you stupid writers ruined the whole game and completely destroyed my favorite character you got everything wrong making gross errors EVERYWHERE!!!! Jeez you stupid fucks!!!!"
and say
"Hmm, you know what, you're right. Were fucking failures as writers, and to remedy the situation, we will blow our brains out so new and better writers can fix our god-forsaken mess"
Gozu wrote:
omg ur just lik
did ur parents di or somefin
did ur parents di or somefin
icer wrote:
Trucy: [Daddy was fired from legal clerk for loitering] Daddy has a fun new job as a street sweeper!
Phoenix: Guess what Apollo, today I swept up some EVIDENCE! ....
Phoenix: Guess what Apollo, today I swept up some EVIDENCE! ....
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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Emperor Ing wrote:
RobbieValiant wrote:
Gerkuman wrote:
Because every other theory pretty much disses someone. (The writers getting the brunt of it.)
And criticism is obviously wrong, because if we do, they might, heaven forbid, notice and improve! (/sarcasm)
How many people seriously listen to
"Oh my god you stupid writers ruined the whole game and completely destroyed my favorite character you got everything wrong making gross errors EVERYWHERE!!!! Jeez you stupid fucks!!!!"
and say
"Hmm, you know what, you're right. Were fucking failures as writers, and to remedy the situation, we will blow our brains out so new and better writers can fix our god-forsaken mess"
Hmm, yeah...
To be honest, I don't see anyone on this forum agreeing with you either.
ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOGANT
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
I hate Klaviema >_>
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Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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RandomJibberish wrote:
I do this it is childish to play a tiny portion if the game and give up because of one character you don't like. How do you know they don't change? Do you not want to know the reason?
I'm forced to agree again. Plus, I was just reminded:
RobbieValiant wrote:
Though the other cases sounded well enough, judging by the case files, if you put in decent characters.
How do you even know the characters aren't decent, if you haven't played the game? I really don't like flaming you, it's just I think you're acting childish.
ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOGANT
Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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Re: Designated Old Cast Topic
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Phoenix_Apollo wrote:
capefeather wrote:
For example, the deliberations about whether or not is a "continuation of T&T" are just... stupid, IMHO. I just can't think of another word to describe it without being redundant.
is a "continuation of T&T" are just... stupid, IMHO. I just can't think of another word to describe it without being redundant.They obviously aren't. It's assumed that GS4 is a follow up to GS3.
That doesn't mean it is. I was asking capefeather, anyway, not you. I already know your opinion.
Gerkuman wrote:
It's why I just think that all the games are in the same continuity. Because every other theory pretty much disses someone. (The writers getting the brunt of it.)
If they're in the 'same continuity' then the blatantly obvious, glaring, implausible and inignorable DISCONTINUITY from GS3 means a sequence of SERIOUS writing and production errors have been executed and people rightfully question ['diss'] the quality and effort of the writers and producer in this regard. The same continuity strikes it as a devastating failure of writing, because any kind of actual continuity from GS3 is laughable.
I don't care if you thought the inconsistency was 'minor' enough to ignore for whatever unknown reason, the discontinuity was enough to disturb a large proportion of the fanbase, and thus there is a problem with the writing and production.
How can the concept the writers wanted to and were endeavouring to write and alternate timeline scenario off 1-5 be blaming or criticising? It actually justifies their actions and the 'discontinuity' without 'blaming' them.
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