Re: Franziska?
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.•°٭blinq٭°•. wrote:
Klavier hate still doesn't equal irrationality
It does if you don't present rational reasoning. Which you haven't. Therefore, irrational.
Re: Franziska?
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Oh, by the way, ESL = English as a Second Language. Don’t mean to disrespect, Mr.Wise, but sometimes it is a little hard to decipher what you’re trying to say.
Re: Franziska?
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Re: Franziska?
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Lind_L_Tailor wrote:
.•°٭blinq٭°•. wrote:
Klavier hate still doesn't equal irrationality
It does if you don't present rational reasoning. Which you haven't. Therefore, irrational.
This isn't a Klavier thread. No one is required to explain their like or dislike of him here.
Re: Franziska?
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Moo.
Re: Franziska?
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Grancko-H wrote:
*Facepalm* No! No! It won't happen! NO!
Why not? I love Franzy!
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Re: Franziska?
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If there's anything the new series needs, it's a challenging Prosecutor. But putting Fran in is just opening a huge bag of worms. Once you've let one in, fans won't let up on their demands, in fact they'll probably want more.
We've already seen from most of the "criticism" of Apollo Justice that the fans are pretty rabid when it comes to returning characters. If Fran is put in, but no one else, the fans will still be very irritated, like they were with only Phoenix returning in GS4 ( even more considering that Fran has very mixed reactions within the fanbase already.)
You've got 3 options really.
1. Skip the fanservice entirely, develop the existing cast, introduce new characters. People that return for the sequel are solely from Apollo Justice.
2. Fanservice remains, but only minor characters return. Doesn't harm the series, but certain fans of the old cast remain angry and annoyed.
3. Fanservice is embraced (see Gyakuten Kenji), main characters return, to make sure everyone is happy, all the popular main characters return at some point, said characters remain exactly the same as before, as change (see Hobo Phoenix) is bad. Certain old cast fans would be happy with this, but it further detracts the new series from being about Apollo. Irritates fans who wish for the series to move on.
Not everyone is going to be happy whichever way they go with the series. I'd be most happy with the 1st option. I feel that people need to realise that Apollo Justice was dissapointing due to poorly constructed cases and iffy characterisation, fixing this is what Capcom need to do, throwing old characters (especially 2 dimensional characters like Franziska) isn't going to solve anything.
Re: Franziska?
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It sounds like classic Nintendo policy, that's for sure.
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Re: Franziska?
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BlackJack wrote:
Grancko-H wrote:
*Facepalm* No! No! It won't happen! NO!
Why not? I love Franzy!
No, I like Franzy too. But seriously. She WON'T APPEAR. Got it?
Moo.
Re: Franziska?
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BlackJack wrote:
You're right. Alienating the fans of every other game of the series to cater to new fans is the best way to go.
It sounds like classic Nintendo policy, that's for sure.
It sounds like classic Nintendo policy, that's for sure.
There are plenty of fans of the first three games that agree with Nose, myself included. How is creating new characters alienating old fans? Can you not enjoy an Ace Attorney game unless every character already featured comes back again and again?
Gyakuten Kenji was full of the kind of fanservice that was missing in AJ, but I found it to be a deteriment to the story, not an improvement, and I've seen others agree with me. In the case of Franziska specificially, it proved the writers had no idea where to take her character other than where it's been before. Having her come back in AJ for more of the same wouldn't be good for the story or the series as a whole. It would just get more and more stale.
Either way it doesn't do any good to try and split the fandom into "new" fans and "old" fans because not all old fans want the old characters back, and who knows if the new fans will like AAI better than AJ once it's out? There are people on all sides of the "returning characters" issue and it's not fair to judge someone based on where they stand.
Re: Franziska?
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Croik wrote:
BlackJack wrote:
You're right. Alienating the fans of every other game of the series to cater to new fans is the best way to go.
It sounds like classic Nintendo policy, that's for sure.
It sounds like classic Nintendo policy, that's for sure.
There are plenty of fans of the first three games that agree with Nose, myself included. How is creating new characters alienating old fans? Can you not enjoy an Ace Attorney game unless every character already featured comes back again and again?
Gyakuten Kenji was full of the kind of fanservice that was missing in AJ, but I found it to be a deteriment to the story, not an improvement, and I've seen others agree with me. In the case of Franziska specificially, it proved the writers had no idea where to take her character other than where it's been before. Having her come back in AJ for more of the same wouldn't be good for the story or the series as a whole. It would just get more and more stale.
Either way it doesn't do any good to try and split the fandom into "new" fans and "old" fans because not all old fans want the old characters back, and who knows if the new fans will like AAI better than AJ once it's out? There are people on all sides of the "returning characters" issue and it's not fair to judge someone based on where they stand.
Am I being chastised for my sarcasm?
Because saying we shouldn't judge people based on where they stand on this issue goes both ways.
And not all of us have played AAI yet, myself included. So I have yet to make my own opinion on it.
But it irks me when people say things like, "I hope Phoenix is a victim in GS5 because then he'd be out of the way for Apollo".
That's bullshit. And this Franziska discussion is more of the same. It's dogma on both sides (including mine). There is very little intelligent evidence for either argument.
Manfred would have a fit.
lol
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Re: Franziska?
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Either way, no. I don't believe Franziska would come in, I mean, she has no place. If anything, she should experience some character developement in an AAI game. It makes more sense for Edgeworth to help her, since
Spoiler: 2-4
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Re: Franziska?
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Quote:
Am I being chastised for my sarcasm?
Because saying we shouldn't judge people based on where they stand on this issue goes both ways.
Because saying we shouldn't judge people based on where they stand on this issue goes both ways.
What I meant was it's not fair to reduce the issue to "old fans vs new fans." Just because someone doesn't need to see Maya or Edgeworth in GS5 doesn't mean they haven't been in the fandom as long, or the games don't mean as much to them.
BlackJack wrote:
But it irks me when people say things like, "I hope Phoenix is a victim in GS5 because then he'd be out of the way for Apollo".
That's bullshit. And this Franziska discussion is more of the same. It's dogma on both sides (including mine). There is very little intelligent evidence for either argument.
That's bullshit. And this Franziska discussion is more of the same. It's dogma on both sides (including mine). There is very little intelligent evidence for either argument.
I think there is intelligent evidence being brought up in this thread. Sure it doesn't help when people say things like "That person sucks so they shouldn't be back!" but saying "I don't want the series to stagnate thanks to a wave of cameos" is a legitimate complaint. You have to find a happy medium between pleasing Phoenix fans and Apollo fans, and in the case of Franziska specifically, I don't think she can be the equalizer.
Re: Franziska?
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Croik wrote:
BlackJack wrote:
But it irks me when people say things like, "I hope Phoenix is a victim in GS5 because then he'd be out of the way for Apollo".
That's bullshit. And this Franziska discussion is more of the same. It's dogma on both sides (including mine). There is very little intelligent evidence for either argument.
That's bullshit. And this Franziska discussion is more of the same. It's dogma on both sides (including mine). There is very little intelligent evidence for either argument.
I think there is intelligent evidence being brought up in this thread. Sure it doesn't help when people say things like "That person sucks so they shouldn't be back!" but saying "I don't want the series to stagnate thanks to a wave of cameos" is a legitimate complaint. You have to find a happy medium between pleasing Phoenix fans and Apollo fans, and in the case of Franziska specifically, I don't think she can be the equalizer.
It could be possible that I got something wrong there, but is it even possible to find that kind of "equalizer"?
I guess in AJ it was supposed to be Hobo Phoenix, to please all those people that wanted Phoenix back, but in my opinion the way Capcom tried to put Phoenix in wasn't their best idea.
I wanted Phoenix back too, but I found it kind of more depressing to see him losing his badge instead of simply not appearing in the game.
It's true that if they brought Franziska back, the Apollo fans would moan about Apollo not getting his "own" story.
That would also include all the other characters, I guess.
If they did bring one of them back, they just shouldn't play a major role in the game like Phoenix did in AJ.
I just wonder if they could please both parties the same way.
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Re: Franziska?
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To make it clear, i'm not a supporter of bringing the old cast back in the exact form that they were in the first three games, but I would appreciate a couple coming back with an interesting take on their future selves. It's that kind of appeal like if you look back 10 years on the friends you know and you reflect how much they've changed, but they're still them. And for the record, I like the direction they took Phoenix in AJ. It was surprising, yet refreshing for me.
Of course, the things I said would apply to any character, like Edgeworth, but this thread seems to be specifically about Franziska. And personally, I'd love to see a canon dialogue between Klavier and Franziska/Edgeworth. I wrote a fanfiction about them growing up in Germany but obviously it's not the same. But I think there are a lot of creative opportunities here. Just sayin'.
Re: Franziska?
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Aevitas wrote:
As for character development, 7 years (maybe 8 by the time GS5 happens) is a lot of time for people to change. She could be a very different person (looks and personality) from what we knew her as in the Phoenix Wright series and veteran players would still appreciate the cameo as long as she still has the "essence" of Franziska. Something as brief as Franziska calling Apollo (or Klavier) a fool and make Phoenix laugh would already make me happy.
But that's kind of what they did with Phoenix and Ema, and there are still a lot of people around the forum that complain about that. Ema especially developed a lot while retaining her love of science (she lit up whenever it was mentioned) but plenty of people were saying she changed too much.
Personally I liked Ema's development. I like her more as an adult than I did as a teenager.
But it's the same for Franziska. If she doesn't develop much she becomes a stale character, if she does develop people complain she's not the same. And since they already kind of established with GK that she is not the kind of character who's going to change...better that she stay alongside Edgeworth and let Apollo get someone else.
Quote:
It could be possible that I got something wrong there, but is it even possible to find that kind of "equalizer"?
There's nothing they can do that will please everyone. But I do think a happy medium exists in there somewhere.
Re: Franziska?
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As for returning characters, I think that the best we can hope for are cameos. If they wanted to keep the old characters, the Phoenix arc would have been continued.
Maybe we could have someone be a major witness, but that would probably be the largest role you could hope for.
Re: Franziska?
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BTW, no, Franzy isn't going to be in GS5. Or at least, she's not going to be a major influence on the storyline. I'll bet on it. Why? WE NEED MORE NEW CHARACTERS DAMMIT! Franzy was new in Justice for All, they should make a new prosecutor that might... have something to do with Apollo or Klavier's past?
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Re: Franziska?
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Re: Franziska?
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thorn96 wrote:
Um... just coz I think I may be right, isn't Klavier from the same country as Kristoph? I mean, they're brothers. And Kristoph is NOT German. Doesn't Klavier speaks in German so much becasue he spent so much time in Germany?
Klavier peppers his speech with German because it's part of his "I'm a sexy foreigner" band image. You'll notice the more serious a situation becomes, the less he does it--it's definitely intentional hamming. Just because Kristoph doesn't do it doesn't mean he isn't originally from Germany. He's been in America for over 7 years at least by the time of the game, so it makes sense that he doesn't have any trace of an accent.
/off topic
Re: Franziska?
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Croik wrote:
thorn96 wrote:
Um... just coz I think I may be right, isn't Klavier from the same country as Kristoph? I mean, they're brothers. And Kristoph is NOT German. Doesn't Klavier speaks in German so much becasue he spent so much time in Germany?
Klavier peppers his speech with German because it's part of his "I'm a sexy foreigner" band image. You'll notice the more serious a situation becomes, the less he does it--it's definitely intentional hamming. Just because Kristoph doesn't do it doesn't mean he isn't originally from Germany. He's been in America for over 7 years at least by the time of the game, so it makes sense that he doesn't have any trace of an accent.
/off topic
This. That's exactly what I was thinking. See, people? THIS TOPIC IS WORTHLESS. It was forged on the basis that Klavier and Franzy are both german, so franzy might return. But he isn't.
Franzy is not coming back to AA. AAI for her now... for the moment. But her in GS5? There might be a cameo, but that'd be it.
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thorn96 wrote:
This. That's exactly what I was thinking. See, people? THIS TOPIC IS WORTHLESS. It was forged on the basis that Klavier and Franzy are both german, so franzy might return. But he isn't.
Errrr Klavier is still German. He just makes a special point of hamming it up for his fans. It would be interesting if he and Fran knew of each other, or had a scene together of some kind, but I don't think that's good enough reason for her to show up in GS5 when it makes much more sense for her to remain in the Kenji game(s).
Re: Franziska?
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Anyway, I do not see Franny coming back for GS5, I do not see the reason for it really outside of possible cameo. What would be her drive? Unless it picks up and plonks the series in her home country, there isn't a point. She only came over to beat Phoenix really. Saying that, I would think she would show some interest in the man who beat Phoenix, or just heard from Phoenix himself but not enough of a reason to plonk her in a game at all. She has had a fair amount of game time now anyway.
Was that a little blunt and without solid argument? hmm.
Refreshing like a spring breeze I think is the phrase I am going to leave this comment on, that is how I feel the next game will go for, to a degree. (much prefer to use 'fresh' though, not refreshing)
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Re: Franziska?
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Kristoph doesnt sound German though.
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Re: Franziska?
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