Oh... ok. I thought you were all in the same frame of mind to be honest.


I want to know who thinks P/E or P/M is canon XD

---

Like me. That's why I refer to me and the other people on the Phoenix/Iris fan thread as shippers...

Gah! It's disconcerting to see people interevene in me and Reemosiku's debate, and turn it into a flame war against Phoenix/Iris. We were in the middle of debating the credulence of Larry/Iris, and somehow, just somehow, we've shifted to Phoenix/Iris, and now it involves like ten more people, seven of which are completely against our opinion, and just feel a need to profess it everywhere.

Now, returning to the debate....
1) Phoenix/Edgeworth is not canon
2) Phoenix/Maya is not canon
3) Phoenix/Iris was canon, but not anymore
4) Phoenix/Anyone is not canon

This comment may arouse much controversy, but I will defend my stand to the last until intellectually defeated.

---

If I make you brain dead will that count as you being intellectually defeated?

But for real debate all you want, sorry I didn't realise I was interrupting an ongoing debate.

---

Yes, I mean brain-dead.
But seriously, you can't actually expect to argue that Phoenix/Anyone is canon, right? Because really, not matter how hard you argue the "evidence", in the end, it's all circumstantial, and there is not concrete proof that can't be argued.

I mean concrete proof like the kind CSI uses to convict a suspect. NOT suggestive "proof"

This feat is a lot harder than it sounds, here's why
seriously, 1+1 ceases to be 2 when you allow the inclusion of vectors.
1+4 and 4+1 disentegrate as equals when you enter the realm of [theoretical] quantum physics.
So as you can see, nothing is impossible to argue against.

---

Now, apologizing for the double post...


I'm not trying to say that the popularity is the reason for canonity, but rather saying that no one has actually been able to simulate a date...I mean seriously, it's not possible for them to actually get along. In fact, they don't even really talk. What could they discuss anyways? "Hey! look at my drawing! Isn't it great?" "O-oh! U-um, y-yes, it is...Mr. Laurice even though I'd rather see Feenie anyday"

And about Larry's problems, well, let's just say Phoenix can dig himself out of his own quagmires, but Larry can only dig himself into one.



I'm trying to say that she doesn't have that chance to move on. She's stuck in a jail cell...how could she possibly move on? Especially when Larry's stuck at Hazakurain and doesn't think of visiting her, while Phoenix actually does visit her.



sorry ‘bout that, but it’s true, and gross
I rest my case



Not clearly, Larry wasn't thinking at all. If you think about it, he had less than a day to make up his mind before resolving to marry Iris from the previous affection tier of "cute", and assumed an affair (clearly showing lack of trust) just because she lent Phoenix a hood. Then, as soon as he found out this that no one denied, he relegated himself to the status of "loser" and completely loses interest in Iris altogether.



That's really not true. You see, he just heard from Doug that she stole poison, and suddenly, he ends up dead, with her right next to him. I think he realized she was guilty all along, but just wasn't thinking clearly enough to accept it until presented with overwhelming evidence.

And he swallowed the necklace precisely because it implicated his Dollie in the double murder, and because he realized that she was guilty. That's when he came up with the subconscious explanation of "She's not the real Dollie" and refused to let go for five years.



Godot had no plan (remember he doesn't think of telling Phoenix). He called Iris up to explain the situation after the murder.



Larry is inept at EVERYTHING, explaining his constant receival of pink slips and his constant breakups with "girlfriends" who are supposedly in love with him.
And he is NOT lazy, as he waited in an uninsulated, unlighted, and generally shabby room for a whole night, vowed to do a sketchbook album, and read "letter writing for dummies" all for something he believed in.
He tries, but fails. Simple as that.



Think about what you're saying here. You're being overtly optimistic about the human race.



He's professional. He can't show that kind of a reaction, because...well...it distracts him from properly executing the task he is assigned. Look up the quotes from his first conversation with April May, and you'll get what I'm trying to say



But Larry's not even a proper suitor, and you have still to prove to me that he still shows interest.

---

“In fact, they don't even really talk. What could they discuss anyways? "Hey! look at my drawing! Isn't it great?" "O-oh! U-um, y-yes, it is...Mr. Laurice even though I'd rather see Feenie anyday"

And about Larry's problems, well, let's just say Phoenix can dig himself out of his own quagmires, but Larry can only dig himself into one.”

You suppose the fact that Larry and Iris would have nothing to talk about, but what makes you think that Phoenix or Iris had anything in common? He went to a public school and majored in theater in college (until he switched to law) while she grew up as a shrine maiden. Yet they, despite their dissimilarities, found something to discuss.
And I don’t see how Larry keeps digging himself into trouble. Sure he was at the wrong place and at the wrong time when Cindy was murdered (you can’t blame the guy, he just went to see her, it’s not like he did anything stupid there). But, in fact, Larry often saves Phoenix’s butt (by having been at Gourd Lake and drawing a picture of the burning bridge). It’s not the best evidence, but Phoenix would be screwed without it. Iris probably would have been convicted if Larry hadn’t stepped in and helped.

“I'm trying to say that she doesn't have that chance to move on. She's stuck in a jail cell...how could she possibly move on? Especially when Larry's stuck at Hazakurain and doesn't think of visiting her, while Phoenix actually does visit her.”

She’s probably going to get out in a few months (like Adrian) and then she will have to move on. And we only know of one instance that Phoenix visited her (and there were other people there, maybe even Larry since he helped with the case.) And guess who could be waiting at home for her when she comes back? Larry. Not Phoenix who’s going to be too busy with his own problems to pay much attention to his love life.

“sorry ‘bout that, but it’s true, and gross
I rest my case”

You obviously aren’t embarrassed by the same things I am then, because I would be far more embarrassed by my immature boyfriend’s infantile declaration that I don’t poop (like any normal human) than a female lawyer’s tactful suggestion that maybe I was in the bathroom.

“Not clearly, Larry wasn't thinking at all. If you think about it, he had less than a day to make up his mind before resolving to marry Iris from the previous affection tier of "cute", and assumed an affair (clearly showing lack of trust) just because she lent Phoenix a hood. Then, as soon as he found out this that no one denied, he relegated himself to the status of "loser" and completely loses interest in Iris altogether.”

Larry has a tendency to go overboard, I’ll give you that. But could you not imagine that maybe Larry laid off of Iris once it became clear that there were still issues with her and his best friend Phoenix. But if Phoenix and Iris aren’t together, I don’t see why he could try to romance her. And I wouldn’t be talking about Larry/Iris’s lack of trust when Iris lied to Phoenix for 6 months and then kept the truth secret for 5 years. That’s going to damage trust more than anything Larry could do.

“And he swallowed the necklace precisely because it implicated his Dollie in the double murder, and because he realized that she was guilty. That's when he came up with the subconscious explanation of "She's not the real Dollie" and refused to let go for five years.”

That makes no sense. If he realized she wasn’t the real Dollie, then why would he want to protect her, let alone risk his life by eating a poison bottle that might kill him! If anything, this proves that Phoenix did truly believe that the Dahlia on the stand was his “Dollie” aka Iris. And your statement doesn’t explain how Phoenix could have though Dollie was guilty because then he must have assumed the bottle really did have poison! He would have known it would kill him!

“Godot had no plan (remember he doesn't think of telling Phoenix). He called Iris up to explain the situation after the murder.”

No, Godot definitely planned things out with Misty and Iris. She was supposed to take the fall for him and she was the one that had to retrieve the body. If he’d just called her up and informed her Misty was dead without explaining anything beforehand, she would have naturally freaked out.

“Larry is inept at EVERYTHING, explaining his constant receival of pink slips and his constant breakups with "girlfriends" who are supposedly in love with him.
And he is NOT lazy, as he waited in an uninsulated, unlighted, and generally shabby room for a whole night, vowed to do a sketchbook album, and read "letter writing for dummies" all for something he believed in.
He tries, but fails. Simple as that.”

I don’t see why the fact that he “fails at everything” (in your opinion) makes him unlovable. He’s certainly helped out with cases in the past. He called for help when Phoenix fell in the river and likely helped save his life. Does it matter that he doesn’t always succeed? He at least puts in some effort. And maybe Iris would prefer a guy who tries hard and truly care but still falls short of the mark to a man that can sweep a lady off her feet but not give a damn.

“Think about what you're saying here. You're being overtly optimistic about the human race.”

Think about what I’m saying?! LOL, you’re the one who claims that out of over 6 billion people on the planet, Phoenix is the only one Iris could love. People don’t have one true soulmate that completes them. Maybe in Romeo and Juliet, but not in real life. Iris might have been happier with Phoenix than Larry, but that doesn’t mean she can’t have a happy relationship with Larry. I think you’re being overly pessimistic by a mile.

“He's professional. He can't show that kind of a reaction, because...well...it distracts him from properly executing the task he is assigned. Look up the quotes from his first conversation with April May, and you'll get what I'm trying to say”

You misunderstand. I agree Phoenix is professional. What I’m saying is that women in-game never look at him and swoon saying “what a hottie!” or something to that effect. Iris and Dahlia meanwhile, capture the hearts of men just by being in the same room as them. It’s clear the game implies that Iris and Dahila are very good-looking while Phoenix is only average. That’s what Mia meant when she said “ why would a girl like her go out with a guy like you?” Iris is out of his league. Larry is no uglier than Phoenix since neither of them really elicit responses from women, but Larry has dated models, so you can’t use the looks argument.
“But Larry's not even a proper suitor, and you have still to prove to me that he still shows interest.”

What do you mean by a proper suitor? Suitors aren’t common terminology for who you go out with anymore. I don’t see what you mean by still shows interest. We know that Larry thinks she’s pretty and likes her, I don’t see what there is to debate about that.

I don’t know why people are so against the idea of Larry/Iris. I mean, he’s the only character shown to have a definite canon interest in Iris since Phoenix’s college days. We know Iris loves Phoenix, but his feelings on the matter remain ambiguous.

HOLY SHIT!!!! You people really get into this don't you.
I....just...wow.... I know the is a useless post but man......

---

Going by that logic. There's the 1 thing P/I has over any other Phoenix pairing. It did happen, and as such it has just as good, if not better chance of working out. And i think it's this point that's the reason Iris is hated so much(It shows he has an interest in girls).

But as you said Taffy Nick is alone. And he always will be. That's one thing that will never change at the hands of Capcom. You can count on Apollo and Edgeworth to be also.
So why are we debating Phoenix pairings then?

@ Luna.

I think Ron / Dessie isn't a very popular pairing because it is 100% canon. There's nothing that can be done with it unless you make it an OT3, but even then. So it gets overlooked.

On that note; The other pairings that are in the same boat are Plum / Winfred and Thalissa / Zak.

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Last edited by Johnny Rotan on Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

Interesting, I have prepared responses to all those posts (except for the embarassing "I don't poop". I know when I'm beaten, and I'll concede that point to you.)

But....not today, because I'm working on my fanfic

---

Okay, I look forward to your response.

@Johnny: I wouldn't say that the fact that Nick once went out with Iris counts as a point in the pairings favor, necessarily. I know of some people who will refuse, no matter what the reason, to get back with their ex-boyfriends or ex-girlfriends, even if it was a really good reason. Some simply believe it's just a sign that they were not meant to be while for others it's simply a matter of principle.

As for Phoenix liking women, well, I think we all knew that since we saw his reaction to April May, lol!

And if anyone wants to know why we debate...for the same reason we join a fandom, it's fun! (As long as you don't take it too seriously!)

yes, yes, I agree, but we need to stay on topic, so I'll simply tell you this.

You might want to play 3-5 over entirely, again...
And read the credits.

Actually, the stuff's on GameFAQ case scripts and youtube, but still, quotes will matter, and having recent memory of the case doesn't hurt. (understatement)

That having been said...I still believe that Larry/Nobody should be presented.

---

Can't replay. Brother has DS and I'm 300 miles away . But I'll try to read up on GameFAQ. Do they have the script typed out though? ( that's insane if they do )

Only for 3-1 and 3-5 for T&T. some people have no lives

But....I decided to shorten my chapter, so I will be responding. Get ready for one in around 15 minutes

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Try this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSxdCXF7li0
It's the end credits.
And all i saw Larry talking about was how he was an artist.

And why not. Here's screenshots of the entire Iris portion:

---

Thanks, Johnny. But don't worry, I found the gamefaqs script (they really did type the whole thing out!)

It's here for interested parties: http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/ds/file/939065/50922

But yeah, there is a piece of evidence in those screens that supports my case. So I'm happy. Just waiting for poor Taffy to finish up sinc he has to work on his fic too!

How optimistic can you get? Larry is nothing like Iris at all. Sure, a fair amount of dissimilarity is welcome, but putting Larry with Iris is like putting Hitler with Mother Theresa. They're opposites in like every way. i.e. Intelligence, boldness, personality, looks, interests, background...need I go on?



*Sigh*. So you realize that one of the few things Larry is able to actually pull off is calling the police?
Iris would not have been convicted, in fact, Maya would have been, and seeing how I'm annoyed with Maya, it's not so bad.

Jokes aside, Larry might have "saved the day" as you put it, but he does it in such a stupidly comical way that Iris would probably sooner have an enema than a date with the notorious Larry Butz.

And as for troubles, he's more than he's worth. That's why Phoenix remembers the old school saying all this time. He's caused so much turmoil for the characters it's to a degree fascinating to write a fanfiction of him being convicted.

And he intended Frank Sawhit to get away with murder the first time over. Need evidence? Watch the pre-trial scene of 1-1



Iris' time is a debate for another time. But I have evidence that Phoenix visited her more than once, and it's canon evidence. Go back and carefully inspect Iris' credits scene.



But Phoenix immediately forgives her. The gesture itself is magnanimous to the point of ridiculosity. Phoenix definitely holds no grudges. Larry, he's the one who proved that Iris was the accomplice. She went to jail BECAUSE of him and he doesn't even visit? How's that for abandoning a girl?



Boy (Doug Swallow) tells boy (Phoenix Wright) that girl (Dahlia/Iris) steals poison.
Tattle tale ends up dead, and girl ends up next to dead boy with a bottle of poisoned cold medicine.
Second boy is accused of murder.

He definitely knew that Dahlia did it. Whether or not he wanted to see her leave in chains was another thing.
Also, he pleaded to Mia to "tell them that she didn't do it!" which means, he realizes that she was guilty



OK, yes, I realized my mistake when I put it up at first.
And so, I present this tidbit. If Iris was willing to take the fall, i.e. conviction of murder, then she must have been at peace with herself to sacrifice herself like that. Put on top of that that she's a nun, with meditational abilities, and you get one very mellowed girl.



OK, if Larry hadn't been there, Phoenix would have called the police himself, and realized, through thinking clearly, that running across the burning bridge was not the best course of action. Case closed.

Besides, it's easier (and better )to judge by results than intention. Sure, you can be the hardest working student in class, but if you don't know how to work with numbers, then no matter how hard you work, you're bound to fail calculus.



Romeo and Juliet is example of just that fickleness.
"I love Rosemary!"
"I love Juliet!"
"What about Rosemary?"
"Who's Rosemary?"

Jokes aside, Iris doesn't show feelings for any male at first. You would do well to remember that she developed feelings for him over the course of their relationship, and it was initiated only to help Dahlia get away with murder. There's no such motive for Larry/Iris beginnings.



So...all those girls hitting on Phoenix...it's not a coincidence?
It's not because of Phoenix's looks, it was because of his bubbly and childish personality. Dahlia seemed pretty mature compared to Phoenix, just like how Iris seems pretty mature compared to Larry and (sorry, Icer) Phoenix seems pretty mature compared to Maya. That's why she couldn't believe it, because the first impression Phoenix gave wasn't that of a boy truly in love, but of a boy so infatuated with a girl he couldn't think straight, yet, Mia was wrong. And, who are we to judge if it's true love or not?



"She's pretty"
What's about 2 hours of evolving from cute to fiancee, and then 2 hours of trial to evolve from lover to loser?
That and he doesn't mention her in the credits, but takes a penchant to Franzy, which, honestly, would also probably never work.




Oh, I wouldn't say they're ambiguous...because...if you go over the credits scene again...

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If you mean that painting of her he did that's on the building, that was there when you first visited Heavenly Hall.

---

And I'm in a debate with Smashfan and Icer at the same time. It seems one of my posts got cut...aw...
OK, look, study Iris' ending screens.

I cannot stress this enough. READ CAREFULLY. You will miss things if you don't understand.
If you're still stumped, I'll give you the answer.

EDIT:

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Last edited by carbon monoxide on Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Thank you...Johnny but seriously, I think he would be smart enough to realize that

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Who the hell is Rosemary? I think you mean Rosaline.

Sorry, but I'm an English teacher and getting that kind of thing wrong irks me.

Anyway, on the topic of Ron/Dessie. It's definitely the canonness that makes it boring to most people. That's why I have more fun shipping things that aren't canon because I love to play with speculations in the games.

---

“How optimistic can you get? Larry is nothing like Iris at all. Sure, a fair amount of dissimilarity is welcome, but putting Larry with Iris is like putting Hitler with Mother Theresa. They're opposites in like every way. i.e. Intelligence, boldness, personality, looks, interests, background...need I go on?”

Taffy, I’m not following your logic. You claim that Iris and Larry are nothing alike, yet you ignore that Phoenix and Iris went out together despite having very little in common as well (at least described in game). And please don’t refer to Larry as Hitler; I understand the Mother Theresa and Iris comparison (they’re both nuns) but Hitler and Larry…well, now there’s too people who have nothing in common. In terms of intelligence Phoenix and Iris are different (he’s a college grad while she, it would appear, has never been to college like Larry). Boldness I’ll give to you since Larry isn’t shy, but then neither is Phoenix. Looks…I could argue that both of them are good-looking with Iris capturing a lot of guys’ interest and Larry dating models and Larry has the same background as Phoenix! They grew up together!

“Jokes aside, Larry might have "saved the day" as you put it, but he does it in such a stupidly comical way that Iris would probably sooner have an enema than a date with the notorious Larry Butz.

And as for troubles, he's more than he's worth. That's why Phoenix remembers the old school saying all this time. He's caused so much turmoil for the characters it's to a degree fascinating to write a fanfiction of him being convicted.”

So, how many times has Phoenix saved the day by pulling something out of thin air at the last minute? He would have lost 1-2 without Mia; he would have lost 1-4 without Maya; he would have lost 2-4 without Franny and Gumshoe. Phoenix relies on his friends to pull him out of trouble as much as his own ability. And why would the fact that Larry “saves the day in comical ways” be off-putting. Should his friends just ignore him and treat him like dirt because he’s more trouble than he’s worth, as you put it? I don’t see why Iris wouldn’t at least give him a chance. I mean, she does owe him for helping with the case.

“Iris' time is a debate for another time. But I have evidence that Phoenix visited her more than once, and it's canon evidence. Go back and carefully inspect Iris' credits scene.”

What does the fact that Phoenix visited her the other day alone prove? He’s her lawyer, isn’t that his job? If there were more to the line than just that he visited her I might give it more credence, but it doesn’t. As her lawyer, they are going to be required to discuss legal matters privately, so I don’t see that as odd. In fact, that quote helps me too because note that Iris says “it’s nice of you and everyone else to visit me” which means that Larry is part of that group too. So he does care enough about her to come.

“But Phoenix immediately forgives her. The gesture itself is magnanimous to the point of ridiculosity. Phoenix definitely holds no grudges. Larry, he's the one who proved that Iris was the accomplice. She went to jail BECAUSE of him and he doesn't even visit? How's that for abandoning a girl?”

Just because Phoenix forgives her does not, by any means, indicate that he trusts her and it would be very natural for him to distrust her for a while. Larry proved that Iris was an accomplice, but I’d argue that this is not as bad as being convicted for murder and of course Phoenix assisted in proving this so Iris should be just as angry at him for going to jail if she’s angry at anyone. And I’ve just proven that he did indeed visit her, so I wouldn’t call that abandoning her. Iris was an accomplice, she must be punished by the law as she disrupted an investigation and protected a murderer.

“He definitely knew that Dahlia did it. Whether or not he wanted to see her leave in chains was another thing.
Also, he pleaded to Mia to "tell them that she didn't do it!" which means, he realizes that she was guilty”

But you are arguing that he knew that Dahlia wasn’t his “Dollie” but an imposter. And even if he thought it was Iris and she was guilty, that still doesn’t explain why he would eat the bottle as there was a great likelihood it was filled with a poison that would kill him as it had already almost killed Diego. And I don’t see how “tell them that she didn’t do it!” proves he realizes she was guilty. Could he not legitimately believe that it was an accident?

“And so, I present this tidbit. If Iris was willing to take the fall, i.e. conviction of murder, then she must have been at peace with herself to sacrifice herself like that. Put on top of that that she's a nun, with meditational abilities, and you get one very mellowed girl”

I’m sorry, what are you trying to prove with this statement? I don’t necessarily think that Iris was at peace with herself. I always interpreted her sacrifice as a form of repentance for what she had almost allowed to happen all those years ago and for never stopping her sister.

“OK, if Larry hadn't been there, Phoenix would have called the police himself, and realized, through thinking clearly, that running across the burning bridge was not the best course of action. Case closed.”

What?! Case closed? If Larry hadn’t been there you honestly think Phoenix would have thought rationally? NO! He would have still tried to save Maya! And he couldn’t have called the police once he was in the freezing river! Larry very likely saved Phoenix’s life and he called Edgey, who defended Iris in court the first day and without whom there’s a good chance she would have been convicted. He was integral to both of them!

“Besides, it's easier (and better )to judge by results than intention. Sure, you can be the hardest working student in class, but if you don't know how to work with numbers, then no matter how hard you work, you're bound to fail calculus.”

Just because you keep failing doesn’t mean you should stop trying. (Are you a nihilist, Taffy?) If you stop then you’ll never understand. Maybe all Larry needs is a different teacher to help him out? A nice girl like Iris would probably be better for him than all of those models.
“Romeo and Juliet is example of just that fickleness.
"I love Rosemary!"
"I love Juliet!"
"What about Rosemary?"
"Who's Rosemary?"”

Exactly! That was Romeo and Juliet’s problem too. They believed that they were destined only for each other and that they could never be happy without one another. And look where it led them! If anything, this is evidence that no one (not even Iris) should see one person as their only possibility for happiness. Phoenix and Iris loved each other just as passionately in college and it almost destroyed them too. It is not necessarily a bad idea for them to move on from one another.

“You would do well to remember that she developed feelings for him over the course of their relationship, and it was initiated only to help Dahlia get away with murder. There's no such motive for Larry/Iris beginnings.”

Again, Taffy, you’ve proven my point. We have no in-game evidence of Iris’s feelings towards Larry because it takes time for her to warm up to a guy. It’s not impossible to imagine that she and Larry might go out. Heck, if Larry’s as bad as you say, she might even go on a pity date with him (lol) and come to like him.

“So...all those girls hitting on Phoenix...it's not a coincidence?”

What girls? Who hit on Phoenix? I recall no one, not even Iris, ever hitting on him.

“it was because of his bubbly and childish personality”
And Larry can’t be bubbly and childish?
“That's why she couldn't believe it, because the first impression Phoenix gave wasn't that of a boy truly in love, but of a boy so infatuated with a girl he couldn't think straight, yet, Mia was wrong. And, who are we to judge if it's true love or not?”
But Phoenix was infatuated with Iris. It might have been true love, but that was irrelevant to Mia. She was trying to get him to see that Dahlia was using him because why would a girl as good-looking as she or her sister ever go out with a guy like him? Mia was trying to get Phoenix to doubt so he would stop protected his “Dollie.”
“She's pretty"
What's about 2 hours of evolving from cute to fiancee, and then 2 hours of trial to evolve from lover to loser?
That and he doesn't mention her in the credits, but takes a penchant to Franzy, which, honestly, would also probably never work.”

Larry is flightly and overreacts a lot. I personally think he was just getting overexcited, but consider that he might have taken an interest in Franzy because he realized that Iris and Phoenix still had some issues to work through. It doesn’t mean he can’t have true feelings for Iris. Sometimes you have to be considerate towards a friend.

“Oh, I wouldn't say they're ambiguous...because...if you go over the credits scene again...”

Again, it’s not at all odd for Phoenix, as a lawyer, to visit a client following the conclusion of a trial to discuss legal matters. If there were more to the quote, I’d give you a point, but there isn’t so I’m going to have to call it subjective.

Errr... did I miss something? It mentions that everyone else was there too.
Not trying to be difficult, I really don't get it. :O

EDIT: WAIT WAIT, I get it now. Sorry.
Ignore this XD

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3) Phoenix/Iris was only ever ambiguous, and is not canon anymore.

4) is probably true though, and it's probably in the best interests of the series to keep it that way.


Hobo is very respectable. Iris will love it

No, it was the one Phoenix relationship which was canonly proven to spectacularly fail, implying it has far less chance of working out, even if they made the unlikely step of getting back together.
Whereas the relationships with, say, Edgeworth and Maya repeatedly overcome all extreme turmoil and bring Phoenix success and gratification.

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Last edited by icer on Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Come on Icer, Iris was masquerading as Dahlia back when Fake!Dahlia and Feenie were an item.
Can't you accept that once upon a time it was canon even though it didn't amount to anything.

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No.
-He claims he fell in love at first sight. "As soon as I laid eyes on her, I knew she was the one for me!" That was DAHLIA.

-He didn't even notice when the 'girlfriend' changed to a totally different person since they looked the same. He fell in love, er, lust with an appearance.

-His entire relationship concept revolved around the romance story Dahlia told him and the bottle that symbolised it . He took for granted Iris shared the same fantasy ideals of their 'perfect relationship' he did. Every time she asked for the bottle, begging for 6 whole months, he ignored it because it was incomprehensible to him her feelings might not be the same as his. If Phoenix was grounded in reality about Iris, he might have noticed Iris' distress or asked why she wanted it back. But he just dismissed all her pleas assuming she didn't even mean them, since they conflicted with his fantasy of their 'relationship'. That's really out of touch.

-There's more but I can't be bothered now. So Phoenix never fell in love with Iris, but his fantasy, and ignored the real Iris every time she ever tried to conflict with it by asking for the bottle [symbolising his perfect fantasy] back.

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Did Phoenix date Iris? Even if he thought she was Dahlia?

This is canon, babble on about how he thought she was somebody else, Dahlia acted like Iris and Feenie loved that, Dahlia couldn't stand it so had Iris stand in for him.

Iris (disguised) dated Phoenix.

CANON!

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No.
Phoenix dated his imaginary girlfriend 'Dollie'. He had no comprehension of the real Iris, as I explained in my last post, and merely ignored her every time she conflicted with his imaginary concept. And a 'pairing' usually means some kind of admitted actual mutual romantic relationship, not one 'date'. Iris didn't even love him in most of the dates, only pretended.

AMBIGUOUS. At best.

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Prove Iris didn't care for Phoenix back then. Dahlia didn't care but Iris did hence why she tried to get the bottle back so Dahlia wouldn't try anything fatal.

Iris and Phoenix went out on at least one date back then, and both enjoyed it as shown by Iris' affection and Phoenix's blind crazy love during the trial.

Don't try and sidetrack this, they went out on dates together. Iris acted like herself, just under a different name. Phoenix fell in love with Iris just under a different name.

CANON!

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No, Phoenix was already 'in love' before he ever even saw Iris. He never 'fell in love' with Iris herself. He was already 'in love' with his girlfriend concept, which was superficial enough that a switch to a totally new person went un-noticed and was irrelevant.
Dahlia was not 'pretending to be Iris' when she met Phoenix. She was just deluding him herself with a fantasy and a lie about the bottle. Notice how she also captivates the Judge and Payne. Judge/Dahlia is canon?

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Notice how canonically in all of AA Feenie and Iris are in a few who actually dated?
Dahlia's sweet personality is almost identical to Iris's except Dahlia is more manipulative. Iris was just being herself, Phoenix fell in love with the image of Iris but then he got the REAL Iris. And when the switch from one person to another involves identical twins I'd say thats pretty fair when one of them was pretending to be the other.

Dahlia was pretending to be like Iris for as long as she could bear.
Iris had to pretend to be Dahlia by being herself.

Besides dating confirms a romantic relationship, the basis of pairings.

Logic simply proves you wrong, they dated. Canon is born even though it didn't last.

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That there are so few explicit romantic relationships in the series just supports that Phoenix/Iris was also ambiguous.

I bet even Iris fans will call foul at this one. Dahlia was not 'pretending to be Iris' either, she never envisaged swapping with Iris later when she first foisted the bottle on him. In fact, she probably thought Phoenix would only believe her lie that day, not keep believing the relationship was real, and never see her again, conveniently 'disposing' of the bottle. And Dahlia is nothing like Iris, they were raised apart for years and Dahlia doesn't live at Hazakurain either.

The real Iris begged and begged for the bottle back, and Phoenix simply ignored her and assumed she didn't mean it, because the real Iris was not the same as the fantasy 'girlfriend' he was in 'love' with in his head. The fantasy girlfriend had given him the bottle as a sign of their perfect romance, and Iris wanting it back was inconsistent with his fantasy, so it was incomprehensible to him to listen to her or believe her, the real Iris.

Phoenix and Maya canonically love each other, to the point they'd die for each other [romantically is up for debate]. They go on non-work outings which can be called 'dates'. I'm not going to claim Phoenix/Maya is 'canon', but 'logic dictates' based on your reasoning I now can.
Dustin-Maggey 'dated', but Maggey implies it wasn't really like that, at least on her side.

I'm not 'debating' this any longer. The fact we can spend ages arguing it just proves my point - it's ambiguous. If it was canon there would be no room for debate. As it is, there are multitudes of areas where it can be called into question. I never knew you liked Phoenix/Iris, you just like arguing with me don't you :)

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NO it isn't.
Iris did in fact go out with Phoenix which is more than i can say about Maya, who only came as close as lunch outings. And so what if she was disguised as Dahlia. It's still her. And there is no proof that Phoenix doesn't like Iris anymore at the end of 3-5. P/M is no better than P/I and it's arguements like this the reason some people are close to leaving this forum because it's ruining the game for them.

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What? No it doesn't it just means that AA is not generally a romantic series, P/I is just one of the few.



She never envisaged it but then again Dahlia wears that mask most of the time, she couldn't put up with it so she switched early on with someone who naturally is like that - Iris.


And thats the only reason you can concieve for him keeping the bottle? Maybe because it's unusual to ask for gifts back? Maybe he just assumed she thought the bottle was too big a gift for the relationship while he felt it was just right and didn't wanna let go? You can't just assume your reason is the only reason he held onto the bottle.


Canonically love each other as friends, no evidence of any romantic notions, not a couple, therefore the lunch trips are not dates. My logic is that Phoenix and Fake!Dahlia were actually an item. Phoenix and Maya canonically are not (as much as Pearl would like it) therefore there non-work outings are not dates. Didn't you hear blinq's speech on how love doesn't neccesarily mean pairing? It's as friends alone as far as canon would have us see it so your plan doesn't work.

I'm not 'debating' this any longer. The fact we can spend ages arguing it just proves my point - it's ambiguous. If it was canon there would be no room for debate. As it is, there are multitudes of areas where it can be called into question. I never knew you liked Phoenix/Iris, you just like arguing with me don't you :)

That there are so few explicit romantic relationships in the series just supports that Phoenix/Iris was also ambiguous.

I bet even Iris fans will call foul at this one. Dahlia was not 'pretending to be Iris' either, she never envisaged swapping with Iris later when she first foisted the bottle on him. In fact, she probably thought Phoenix would only believe her lie that day, not keep believing the relationship was real, and never see her again, conveniently 'disposing' of the bottle. And Dahlia is nothing like Iris, they were raised apart for years and Dahlia doesn't live at Hazakurain either.

The real Iris begged and begged for the bottle back, and Phoenix simply ignored her and assumed she didn't mean it, because the real Iris was not the same as the fantasy 'girlfriend' he was in 'love' with in his head. The fantasy girlfriend had given him the bottle as a sign of their perfect romance, and Iris wanting it back was inconsistent with his fantasy, so it was incomprehensible to him to listen to her or believe her, the real Iris.

Phoenix and Maya canonically love each other, to the point they'd die for each other [romantically is up for debate]. They go on non-work outings which can be called 'dates'. I'm not going to claim Phoenix/Maya is 'canon', but 'logic dictates' based on your reasoning I now can.
Dustin-Maggey 'dated', but Maggey implies it wasn't really like that, at least on her side.


There is no room for debate!! The only reason it's ambiguous is because you refuse to believe it. Physically Iris and Phoenix went on a date it's freaking canon!!!
Even some other anti-P/I fans can admit that when Phoenix was young PhoenixXIris was canon.

For the record I care nothing for PhoenixXIris, Iris' character was introduced too late in the series in my opinion for a decent romantic interest to be established I just felt that there was no Justice being done.

But arguing with you can be fun or tedious depending on the stupidity or logic in the argument.

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As far as I can tell, what icer and Herr Blondie are really arguing about is what the definition of a canon pairing is.
Blondie believes canon = they went on dates, which is obviously true. icer believes canon = they loved each other, which is arguably not true. You'll never reach an agreement if you start from different premises! :P

I don't usually come in here, just thought I'd throw in a little meta-commentary.

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Canon is what the series basic and true things are. It's more the defination of what is a pairing here.
And Phoenix completely (blindly one might say) loved Fake!Dahlia anyway.

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Oh really? I still think it was canon, no matter what you argue.

Sorry Lunaria, I did forget the name and didn't do my homework, maybe that's why I such a low grade in Lit...

Look, Dahlia wasn't willing to date Phoenix at all. In fact, she was more willing to kill him. Even for a girl like Dahlia, killing him is a big task.
And Iris didn't expect the relationship to go on for six months either. Look, unless you can say that Iris was somehow a better actor than Dahlia, there's no way she acted as a girlfriend for more than a few weeks before actually falling in love with him. And as for Phoenix, well, there's no question about his feelings.
Something obviously got in the way of Dahlia's plans, especially since Dahlia couldn't monitor their relationships for fear of being discovered, and it didn't appear conspicuous until six months later. Now, since there's no way Dahlia could notice, build up evidence, and resolve to kill Phoenix with a plan for it as well so quickly, we are led to assume that Iris and Phoenix became Canon rather quickly.

And yes, I will argue this to death.

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Johnny, no offense, but if you don't like people calling into question the canon of P/I, then why are you on the pairing debate tread? Obviously people who don't agree with you are going to debate this point, just sayin'. And don't let it bother you what other people think. Your opinion is just as legitimate as theirs .

Oh, and Taffy, do you still want to debate about Larry/Iris? (Btw, do you mind if I call you Taffy?)

I can see how people don't see Phoenix/Iris as canon even in college. A lot of people can't get over the fact that Iris didn't turn Dahlia in and this put Phoenix at risk; and some people see Phoenix as not being in love with Iris, but rather infatuated with her to the point that he ignored the real her in favor of how he imagined his perfect girlfriend to be.

The did go out though, so that's completely canon, but the fact that we know so little about their time together leaves their relationship open to interpretation.

Oh, yes, continuing to debate is a favorite pastime of mine, but I just responded to Icer and Smashfan, and am trying to work on a fanfic. Your arguments are getting progressively more difficult to pick apart, partially because it's almost impossible to argue that there's no chance of Larry/Iris. However, I'll have to delay an official response because I'm continuing a fanfic.

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The only thing Dahlia had an interest in was dumping the bottle off on him (using a fake love interest in him). Then getting it back. Iris on the other hand was trying to get the bottle back also, and wound up falling for him for real.

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